Age-appropriate programs

blue dog · Nov 23, 2010

All this discussion on how Murakami is very cutesy, and how out of the older young women, only Alenka Leonova can pull off cute. On the same token, there are junior girls who try to act more mature on the ice. Some have even said that they skate to Carmen because they can relate to her.

Are there certain pieces of music that should just not be attempted by some skaters, because of their age?

lavender · Nov 24, 2010

I don't know....I like Murakami in general however I'm not fond of overly cutesy programs on anyone...not even Alena. Doesn't matter the age for me or the person.

dorispulaski · Nov 24, 2010

I don't like seriously done Argentine tangos or sambas done by preteen dancers.

And I never want to see Barbie Girl skated by a pair again where the guy is bald and the girl looks 13.

It isn't so much what age they are; it's what age they look like.

mot · Nov 24, 2010

Am I the only one who was more disturbed by 16 yo Kanako skating to Be Italian (for her EX)??? I have seen it a number of times, so I am getting used to it now - but for the first time I saw it, I was shocked that her coach, who's been looking after her since she was 5 yo or something, had given her the programme. Maybe they did not bother try to translate / understand the lyrics...

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 24, 2010

I think any skater under 16 is far too young to do any interpretation. Carmen by story would be a laugh, but Carmen by music is possible. I would be more interested in young girls with good musicality, good line, and solid tricks to be promising youngsters (boys too!).

Layfan · Nov 24, 2010

What about this 15-year-old? :biggrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

But your point about character interpretation vs. musical interpretation is very good. I think Mirai's Carmen is a good example of decent musical interpretation but the Carmen character wasn't really present.

Nadine · Nov 24, 2010

dorispulaski said:
And I never want to see Barbie Girl skated by a pair again where the guy is bald and the girl looks 13.

It isn't so much what age they are; it's what age they look like.

LMAO, and I know whom you are referring to as well, ITA! :laugh:

Okay, after picking myself up from the ground after laughing so much, I just wanted to say it all depends on the person if they can pull off a much more mature program than his/her age.

It's not about chronological age, but rather whether that individual has experienced enough in life to actual feel what the program means, and imho Oksana Baiul was that exception because of all she has gone through in life at such a young age. Therefore all her programs were totally believeable. She touched my heart over & over again ad infinitum.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 24, 2010

Layfan said:
What about this 15-year-old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

But your point about character interpretation vs. musical interpretation is very good. I think Mirai's Carmen is a good example of decent musical interpretation but the Carmen character wasn't really present.

She is an excellent example of using the music. I thought she was great. No need to kill her at the end of the program.

Mathman · Nov 24, 2010

Layfan said:
What about this 15-year-old?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKmUW8wPB0s

According to Christine Brennan’s book, The Edge of Glory, Frank Carroll had a whale of a task in talking Michelle’s parents into letting her perform in theatrical make-up. The first time Michelle performed that program, Dick Button literally did not recognized her.

For her part, Michelle confided that one of her big thrills on the COI tour the year before was hanging out with Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul learning all about the wonderful world of make-up.

As for playing a role, when Frank and Lori suggested the story of Salome, Michelle thought that was cool – until she actually found out what the story was about, and then she freaked out. :laugh:

In the first version of the choreography she actually skated around with her palm up waiter-style, as if she were carrying the head of John the Baptist on a platter.

janetfan · Nov 24, 2010

mot said:
Am I the only one who was more disturbed by 16 yo Kanako skating to Be Italian (for her EX)??? I have seen it a number of times, so I am getting used to it now - but for the first time I saw it, I was shocked that her coach, who's been looking after her since she was 5 yo or something, had given her the programme. Maybe they did not bother try to translate / understand the lyrics...

Please - that program - "Be Italian" is greattttt!! :laugh:

I love it - but more importantly, Cincuanta loves it. :yes:

A stroke of genius to flatter Speedy that way. Or are you one of those fans who thinks skating in the CoP era is non-political :eek:

Here is the charming vixen, the saucy baggage , the one and only Miss Kanako.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvD0wedqYHw

From the applause the crowd at Skate America loved Kanako's gala.

dorispulaski · Nov 24, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlDBuOkNfvo

Here's a very young skater, skating an adult themed program (Joanna Ng, Skate Canada 1990)
The actual skating starts at about the 3 minute mark in the clip.

In 1990, Skate Canada included an Interpretative competition, where no jumps harder than doubles could be done. Joanna won!

mot · Nov 24, 2010

Thank you, dorispulaski. She's amazing. Funnily enough, I was not too bothered by her performance - I guess the lyrics of Be Italian that botherd me the most?

janetfan, I think I can understand if the choice of music was somehow political. But it does not make me appreciate the choice personally though. Perhaps I am a bit too old fashioned and protective? Also being a Japanese ex-pat, I am often a touch too sensitive about my fellow country folks' casual approach towards foreign languages - hence my concern over their misinterpretation / ignorance of the lyrics. Time again, I might be too naive.

Oh, I do often get embarrassed by stereotypical portrayal and caricature of anything 'oriental' by non-oriental people too!

Layfan · Nov 24, 2010

Mathman said:
According to Christine Brennan’s book, The Edge of Glory, Frank Carroll had a whale of a task in talking Michelle’s parents into letting her perform in theatrical make-up. The first time Michelle performed that program, Dick Button literally did not recognized her.

For her part, Michelle confided that one of her big thrills on the COI tour the year before was hanging out with Nancy Kerrigan and Oksana Baiul learning all about the wonderful world of make-up.

As for playing a role, when Frank and Lori suggested the story of Salome, Michelle thought that was cool – until she actually found out what the story was about, and then she freaked out. In the first version of the choreography she actually skated around with her palm up waiter-style, as if she were carrying the head of John the Baptist on a platter.

Haha! Thanks for that Mathman. I have not read Christine's book, weirdly enough. Anyway, I didn't know any of that background info.

She is an excellent example of using the music. I thought she was great. No need to kill her at the end of the program.

Yes, she is. And I had to eat my words because I was afraid at the beginning of last season that Carmen wasn't a good choice for her. Some criticized her because she didn't give a sense of "tragedy" but that wasn't the intent of the program.

silverlake22 · Nov 25, 2010

I think Rachael Flatt has always done a good job picking age appropriate music, especially when she was competing at senior nationals as a tiny 14 and 15 year old. Her music was always nice and sophisticated, but suitable for a young girl her age, and it never seemed like she was trying to be too cutesy or too grown up.

blue dog · Nov 27, 2010

I do believe skaters have the right and responsibility to choose music that makes them want to skate to everyday. In the end, we're not the ones with these skaters at 3 am, while they put on the orange belt, to skate their program music. However, having said that, their coaching/choreography team needs to better assess how their skaters' programs will be received. When Sasha insisted on skating to Carmen in 2002, I thought, wow she's a little young for this. Even Irina, at 23, when she chose Tosca for 2002, seemed a bit "immature" to me, to be skating to something so serious. I preferred her when she skated to flamenco. Then there's Tara Lipinski, skating in 1994 to Samson and Delilah's Bacchanale. There's just a potential for some eyebrows to be raised. Maybe that's what they're after, but sometimes, to me, it comes across like those little girls in pageants participating in a swimsuit contest.

SeaniBu · Nov 27, 2010

Best said is the indication it is the ability of the skater to "pull it off." Definitive.

Somewhat surprised the MKs California Girls at 14 or 15 in a bikini wasn't mentioned. I think that is a good place to say what the heck is trying to get pulled off here? Excusable possibly due to it being an exhibition ... yes if you listen to the lyrics or know the story behind songs you have to ask yourself, is there a point where or youth is getting ahead of themselves, is it just music, what are they trying to represent. What about Plushy skating as a little baby (although a pro routine) acting like a complete imbecile that has great triples and than having the too sexy muscle costume to his "saga?" Oh the range is huge hunh? Appropriate is relative, or is it. Kat Witt Rule? Age rated musical selection regulatory panel? If it makes someone uncomfortable than does that mean it is time to make a rule?

I Say let them make the mistake and try something that just doesn't suit them. It really shows the insufficient direction of the choreographer and coach.

Tonichelle · Nov 27, 2010

I don't recall MK skating to California Girls in a bikini, just a one piece bathing suit. Tara Lipinski, IIRC, in teh same show (too hot to skate) skated in a tankini type swimsuit to Wipe Out.

California Girls was just awkward all the way around because the choreography didn't fit MK (then or now). It was too flirty, and she never came off as a flirt very well.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 27, 2010

^^^
I don't mind the choice of music - it's a problem for me if they use it to convey a character aleady known from a story, opera, ballet, etc.

btw, choosing music for skating is a difficult job and the cutting of it for a program is moreso. I do not believe little girls can do that. It's for an astute, savvy Choreogapher to so. I do believe Mirai chose Carmen, but the entire program was done by Lori.

Sasha had the most remarkable SPs but her LPs were so similar in musical sweetness.
I don't think Irina knew the story of Tosca, or cared about the Puccini score.
I've not seen much of competitive Tara, but her 'bubble gum' style was always present.

Layfan · Nov 28, 2010

Joesitz said:
^^^
I don't mind the choice of music - it's a problem for me if they use it to convey a character aleady known from a story, opera, ballet, etc.

btw, choosing music for skating is a difficult job and the cutting of it for a program is moreso. I do not believe little girls can do that. It's for an astute, savvy Choreogapher to so. I do believe Mirai chose Carmen, but the entire program was done by Lori.

Sasha had the most remarkable SPs but her LPs were so similar in musical sweetness.
I don't think Irina knew the story of Tosca, or cared about the Puccini score.
I've not seen much of competitive Tara, but her 'bubble gum' style was always present.

When you're young everything impresses you. I've been thinking about that more and more. The movies, music and books I discovered as a teen seemed so amazing - because it was the first time I was being exposed to a lot of things. I think teenagers can make a lot of crumby taste decisions and think somethings are original when they're really not. It's original to them after all - it's the first time they've seen/heard it! Great time in life but a little maturity and experience is always good for taste.

In Mirai's case, though, I thought was her coach/choreographer who proposed Carmen to her. And she thought it was a cliche - because everyone knows Carmen is a figure skating cliche - but they convinced her. I think Frank/Lori probably thought it was a good/safe piece of music to establish Mirai as a more adult skater.

I think it was Sasha in 2002 who insisted on Carmen.

In her case, I don't love her Carmen choreo and Sasha was polished enough back then to do something a big more original. See? Teenagers. :no:

:

I agree with you on some of Sasha's LPs but I thought Romeo and Juliet was something different by the time she did it at the Olympics.

And Rachmaninoff took her in a different direction from musical sweetness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3gq2NUtHA

R.D. · Nov 28, 2010

Tonichelle said:
I don't recall MK skating to California Girls in a bikini, just a one piece bathing suit. Tara Lipinski, IIRC, in teh same show (too hot to skate) skated in a tankini type swimsuit to Wipe Out.

California Girls was just awkward all the way around because the choreography didn't fit MK (then or now). It was too flirty, and she never came off as a flirt very well.

Exactly. I felt (feel) the same way about Cohen doing DSTM. She lacks the charm, the "flirt" (for lack of a better word) necessary to really pull it off. She's best as a "cold" skater. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

Age-appropriate programs

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