Age-appropriate programs

We all have different perceptions about this - Layfan's post makes sense to me and seems factually accurate about Lori and Frank wanting Carmen for Mirai - who initially resisted it and talks about it in an interview last year. She even said she thought she was too young ,,,,,,,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jakLO78EfBE

RD, not always willing to offer an opinion is never at a loss for a negative one regarding Sasha.

Kanako seemed to be the inspiration for this topic and some might find her current exhibition music too racy for a skater who just turned 16. I see nothing wrong or inappropriate about it - and actually think the routine is entertaining. FTR, I typically cringe whenever I see a chair being used as a prop but in "Be Italian" it doesn't really bother me.

On the other hand I like Kanako and if I was up at the North Pole she could probably sell me ice cubes.

In it's attempt to try and offer something to everybody figure skating has had more than it's share of cheesey moments. Morozov and his crotch grabbers feel more tacky to me than Kanako flirting with the crowd - where despite any lyrics her sunny personality is there for all to see.

Seems this "sport" does best when scandals are involved and has never been shy about rewarding the prettiest skaters a bit more than they deserve. In the case of some of the Euro Ice Dancers it was mentioned some slept with judges to secure podium spots for their team. Talk about a devoted partner

That seems tackier to me but of course I am talking about the Dance :sheesh:
Not to come off as sexist - but anyone who thinks this hasn't happened over and over again - in the world of Dance and music is naive. More than one aspiring young female musician has worked her way from the "bottom up" as they say to to a nice job in a smphony orchestra section.

I am not involved in the Dance world - but wonder what stories we could hear from ballerinas - ones who made it as well as the vast majority who didn't.

All things considered I find Kanako's "Be Italian" pretty innocent.
Katerina would be more interesting to discuss when it comes to selling "it" on the ice, no?

Then again, some might argue she was "age appropriate" so it was OK

R.D. said:

Exactly. I felt (feel) the same way about Cohen doing DSTM. She lacks the charm, the "flirt" (for lack of a better word) necessary to really pull it off. She's best as a "cold" skater. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

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I don't think Sasha is bad at flirting so long as it's teh more mature and not cutesy stuff like MK tried pulling off at 14 in California Girls. She can play the seductress - as, to me, those types seem a bit "colder" as they have "sinister" reasons for seducing whoever. I think her flirtiness in her Olympic SP worked well, too.

Tonichelle said:

I don't think Sasha is bad at flirting so long as it's teh more mature and not cutesy stuff like MK tried pulling off at 14 in California Girls. She can play the seductress - as, to me, those types seem a bit "colder" as they have "sinister" reasons for seducing whoever. I think her flirtiness in her Olympic SP worked well, too.

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I think certain routines CAN work for her (the cabaret thing, DROMP). But when the whole purpose of the piece is to prance around and flirt, she comes off (TO ME) cold and somewhat awkward. *shrug*

I suppose it can be argued that it depends on who you ask...

Tonichelle said:

I don't recall MK skating to California Girls in a bikini, just a one piece bathing suit. Tara Lipinski, IIRC, in teh same show (too hot to skate) skated in a tankini type swimsuit to Wipe Out.

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I 'spose I could have it exaggerated, although I do believe skin in the middle was an indication of the costume as they all are one piece. Yet the point remains .. swimsuit, ice skating and lyrics that discus keeping the boyfriends warm at night on the beach .. all subject to interpretation - both of the skater and viewer. And wipe out is not discussing "relationship factors" (possibly innuendo) as well tankini is shorts.

Tonichelle said:

California Girls was just awkward all the way around because the choreography didn't fit MK (then or now). It was too flirty, and she never came off as a flirt very well.

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But it sounds like the point was inadvertently acknowledged anyway.
It just doesn't work sometimes. Bad choice.

SeaniBu said:

I 'spose I could have it exaggerated, although I do believe skin in the middle was an indication of the costume as they all are one piece. Yet the point remains .. swimsuit, ice skating and lyrics that discus keeping the boyfriends warm at night on the beach .. all subject to interpretation - both of the skater and viewer. And wipe out is not discussing "relationship factors" (possibly innuendo) as well tankini is shorts.

But it sounds like the point was inadvertently acknowledged anyway.
It just doesn't work sometimes. Bad choice.

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Tara showed tummy, MK didn't, is what I was getting at.

My biggest problem with Carmen and any young skater is that coming from a balletic background, my Carmen is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQB1dz2IJeA&feature=related . The dancer (Plisetskaya) is actually 42 in it and commands the stage with power, maturity and oozes sexuality. Therefore I do indeed find it quite unsuitable for young skaters, due to the fact that my standards for this are very high.

Point well taken, Ankka, and one can also think about the original opera, which was pretty intense. In fact, the actual Carmen from the Prosper Merimee original (was it a story or a play? Can't remember) was not just passionate but completely amoral. It's the music that's warm and charming. Carmen as a character was cold as ice.

I think that most younger skaters have very little life experience. Where are they going to get any? They spend a zillion hours a day at the rink, and the ones who keep up with their education spend the rest of the day at their studies. They become great at time management but not at the messy emotions of the immortal works of art. Occasionally you get one who summons up a magical Lorelei connection to the music, and age is no boundary at either end of her career. (Kwan is certainly one of those. We all have others we can add to the list.) The others never quite click with the more heated music. And that's fine! Slutskaya was a merry skater who radiated vitality. I always thought it would be fun to see her skate to Die Fledermaus or some other upbeat classical piece. As for Lipinski, she skated to age-appropriate music most of the time (didn't she skate to "Little Women"?). And she left before she was age-appropriate for other music. In fact, when she won the Olympics, I shuddered with the worry that henceforth, all we would see were jumping sprites in white ruffles skating to age-appropriate music. I think I would have given up on ladies' skating then and there.

Olympia said:

As for Lipinski, she skated to age-appropriate music most of the time (didn't she skate to "Little Women"?). And she left before she was age-appropriate for other music. In fact, when she won the Olympics, I shuddered with the worry that henceforth, all we would see were jumping sprites in white ruffles skating to age-appropriate music. I think I would have given up on ladies' skating then and there.

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The thought of Tara's programs & Oksana's costumes, yuck. I agree with you on Tara, though. She never really got the chance to explore a more mature dimension to her skating, so maybe I'm unfair in my criticism. What's clear, though, is that the age-limit is a blessing. No more cutesy jumping beans winning based on jump content.

dlgpffps said:

The thought of Tara's programs & Oksana's costumes, yuck. I agree with you on Tara, though. She never really got the chance to explore a more mature dimension to her skating, so maybe I'm unfair in my criticism. What's clear, though, is that the age-limit is a blessing. No more cutesy jumping beans winning based on jump content.

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To be fair to Tara, I really felt that she was finally starting to mature and develop into something of an artist in her last years of pro skating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSOy82z6CwE&feature=player_embedded.

Olympia said:

Point well taken, Ankka, and one can also think about the original opera, which was pretty intense. In fact, the actual Carmen from the Prosper Merimee original (was it a story or a play? Can't remember) was not just passionate but completely amoral. It's the music that's warm and charming. Carmen as a character was cold as ice.

I think that most younger skaters have very little life experience. Where are they going to get any? They spend a zillion hours a day at the rink, and the ones who keep up with their education spend the rest of the day at their studies. They become great at time management but not at the messy emotions of the immortal works of art. Occasionally you get one who summons up a magical Lorelei connection to the music, and age is no boundary at either end of her career. (Kwan is certainly one of those. We all have others we can add to the list.) The others never quite click with the more heated music. And that's fine! Slutskaya was a merry skater who radiated vitality. I always thought it would be fun to see her skate to Die Fledermaus or some other upbeat classical piece. As for Lipinski, she skated to age-appropriate music most of the time (didn't she skate to "Little Women"?). And she left before she was age-appropriate for other music. In fact, when she won the Olympics, I shuddered with the worry that henceforth, all we would see were jumping sprites in white ruffles skating to age-appropriate music. I think I would have given up on ladies' skating then and there.

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I think it was Joesitz who once wrote that when he wants to experience Bizet's "Carmen" he goes to the opera to see it.

I care much more for the orchestral suite and have seen it performed several times. I have also played it myself, as well as various chamber music arrangements.

The music itself has alot of meaning to me and I need no story attached to it to enjoy it.
I feel the same way when I see a skater using "Carmen." The most famous skating program to "Carmen" was performed by Kati. Debi also used the music the same season and showed a totally different interpretation. Skated cleanly I much prefer Debi's program - since the skating itself was better.

The ultimate Carmen Ladies program from a skating POV was performed by Mirai last season. Her performances at Natls and the Olympics were received with rousing ovations.

I guess I completely missed the part where I was supposed to judge Mirai's program against the novel, or opera. :think:
It is pretty clear to me that Mirai was skating to the music with only a little nod to the character and was showing mostly how she felt about the MUSIC.

As a skating fan I don't have to think which version - Kati or Mirai's - that I prefer. There is no comparison in the skating and Mirai's program wins for me easily.

If I want more - a true "Carmen" experience - unfortunately it wasn't availble from Kati or any figure skaters. I must agree with Joe - and if I want an operatic "Carmen experience" - well I go see the opera. It can also be seen at home with a DVD rental.

Personally I prefer the instrumental version and think what is most important when skating to "Carmen" ......is ,,,,,,the quality of the actual skating.

Was her program age appropriate? Whatever that means I don't think the judges penalized Mirai for only being 16.

Was it a crowd pleaser? Most definitely.
Did the judges seem to like it? Quite a bit.

Did Mirai lose a medal because she did not try to portray a more seductive "Carmen?"
Would Mirai's skating have been better if she spent more time posing and wore a more revealing costume?
I seriously doubt it and think there were three Ladies in Vancouver who in the judges opinions simply skated better.

For me all discussions about Mirai doing better with "Carmen" begin and end with her skating.
The character portrayal pales in comparison to rotating the jumps, correct edge takeoffs, etc......

But see, Janetfan, this is fine--because Mirai chose to interpret the music as she saw fit. She wasn't saying, like some other skaters, that she identified with Carmen, etc, that she was portraying the operatic character. She was basically just Mirai, skating to the mood of the music.

The same could also be said to skaters, I guess, interpreting music that is beyond their reach. Tara Lipinski was smart, in a way, choosing to skate to music appropriate to a 15-year old. I had problems with Sarah Hughes in 2001, before she rechoreographed her long program, since she had a portion of Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto in there. Although many considered her more mature than Tara, she lacked the maturity to interpret the adagio movement.

janetfan said:

I guess I completely missed the part where I was supposed to judge Mirai's program against the novel, or opera. :think:
It is pretty clear to me that Mirai was skating to the music with only a little nod to the character and was showing mostly how she felt about the MUSIC.

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Yes, skating programs don't have to be woven around a plot, but Mirai actually said she wanted to perform a more mature Carmen so... :think: and if that's the case, she didn't exhibit enough emotional range or impassioned skating to really pull it off. She did manage to perform a wonderful, exuberant, age-appropriate program, but just not to the character.

Then again, I'd be very surprised to see such a young lady convincingly portray Carmen, a multi-faceted character full of contradictions. I'd be hard-pressed to find any skater who could possibly embody her supernatural appeal (alone). That's why I don't like how Carmen is overused, esp. in novice & junior levels. Nobody can really live up.

But yes, Mirai's program is the best up to date from a skating POV, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it the ultimate Carmen since it's not a defining piece -- for me, at least. She could've skated to some other music with similar choreography. I'd have barely noticed. And I don't see how you could separate skating with the actual music & the underlying plot when you're trying to judge the ultimate Carmen program. Her Pirates of the Caribbean, though, gets the nod between hers and Javier's and is IMO her signature piece up to date.

Thank god Mirai's still young, healthy and full of potential. Think of all the different types of programs she could skate to if she has a long, fruitful career. Last season's programs were excellent for her coming out party, but she needs programs that will solidify her presence amongst the big girls. This season's programs pale in comparison, but maybe she just needs to get out and really sell it.

blue dog said:

But see, Janetfan, this is fine--because Mirai chose to interpret the music as she saw fit. She wasn't saying, like some other skaters, that she identified with Carmen, etc, that she was portraying the operatic character. She was basically just Mirai, skating to the mood of the music.

The same could also be said to skaters, I guess, interpreting music that is beyond their reach. Tara Lipinski was smart, in a way, choosing to skate to music appropriate to a 15-year old. I had problems with Sarah Hughes in 2001, before she rechoreographed her long program, since she had a portion of Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto in there. Although many considered her more mature than Tara, she lacked the maturity to interpret the adagio movement.

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Actually Mirai said she thought she was too young for "Carmen" but since Lori and Frank wanted it for her she said she was determined to show she could do well with it and to prove the doubters wrong.

From where I am sitting as a fan I say - score a big one for Mirai - and the doubters seem to have been proven wrong.

I would like to say that many posts I read at GS about music, character portrayals, and skating artistry in general never cease to leave me baffled.

Some credentials might be in order from time to time........as I find most of what I read here about music and music programs for skating a matter of the "amateur hour" being on naked display. Fans opinions without real expertise are open for debate.

A favorite poster of mine - gkelly - never fails to point out when my opinions about skating as it applies to the rules are questionable if not wrong.

I wait now for a rebuttal - but please tell me how Mirai's "Carmen" was not musical enough. Please show me that the judges gave her low P/E for her performance at the Olympics or that her IN was badly dinged because she was too young or ....gasp....different than Kati

But that won't happen and instead we will hear how a few fans thought Mirai was not the equivalent of a forty year old opera diva .......

For that I say "thank god for small favors"

Olympia said:

Slutskaya was a merry skater who radiated vitality.

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Congratulations on this great sentence! I've never managed to be able describe why I enjoyed Irina as well as this. Think I'll just save this sentence if I ever have to defend Irina.

I think Mirai can also be described in this way, when she is at her best. But she can also be soft and sweet at certain moments. I think her Carmen selection turned out to be perfect for her.

Here's my emoticon descriptions of my favorite skaters - well the aura I think they exude or how they make me feel:
Irina:
Mirai:
Yuna:
Sasha:
Michelle:

***Alissa gets a heart-eyes too but I was only allowed five emoticons.

Layfan said:

Congratulations on this great sentence! I've never managed to be able describe why I enjoyed Irina as well as this. Think I'll just save this sentence if I ever have to defend Irina.

I think Mirai can also be described in this way, when she is at her best. But she can also be soft and sweet at certain moments. I think her Carmen selection turned out to be perfect for her.

Here's my emoticon descriptions of my favorite skaters - well the aura I think they exude or how they make me feel:
Irina:
Mirai:
Yuna:
Sasha:
Michelle:

***Alissa gets a heart-eyes too but I was only allowed five emoticons.

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And yet I have always found the imagery from this somewhat disturbing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBtGob1AVZg

I dunno - it must be a cultural thing - because I have found too many exhibition programs from Russian skaters troublesome

janetfan said:

And yet I have always found the imagery from this somewhat disturbing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBtGob1AVZg

I dunno - it must be a cultural thing - because I have found too many exhibition programs from Russian skaters troublesome

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Never been a favorite program of mine, that's for sure. I meant when all those skaters are their best, of course. Even Sasha has done somethings I don't really like.... Even so, I would say Irina was was "merry and "radiated vitality" in that program.

Layfan said:

Never been a favorite program of mine, that's for sure. I meant when all those skaters are their best, of course. Even Sasha has done somethings I don't really like.... Even so, I would say Irina was was "merry and "radiated vitality" in that program.

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OK, I was kidding. I also have admitted before that as much as I used to be against Irina - I miss her.
She was IMO - the ultimate "tomboy" Lady skater.

Any rumors about her new and improved artistry over the years (yes, we heard them several times) were just that .....RUMORS

But she was a great skater and a wonderful Lady and I do hope the Russians will finally have a world class skater sometime soon. And that goes double for the USA

that's true she was, ha! She was best when she embraced her tomboyishness. Well, maybe she went a little too far in that 02 exhibit

janetfan said:

OK, I was kidding. I also have admitted before that as much as I used to be against Irina - I miss her.
She was IMO - the ultimate "tomboy" Lady skater.

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Indeed. Granted, old-timers may remember that I was never fond of her at all...but like most skaters who make their mark, once they are gone for a while, one looks back and can appreciate their skating styles, even if one doesn't or never particularly liked it.

janetfan said:

Some credentials might be in order from time to time........as I find most of what I read here about music and music programs for skating a matter of the "amateur hour" being on naked display. Fans opinions without real expertise are open for debate.

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I'm assuming you're referring to me. I'll admit that opera and ballet bore me, but I'm a history/international relations major who often uses culture to explain history and vice-versa. Bizet's Carmen was actually a piece I used as an example of late 19th century cultural manifestations of gender tensions. That required that I do some analysis of the character Carmen sooo I don't know, does that qualify me to speak of Mirai's character portrayal? Look, music is definitely not my forte, which is why I never contribute to the deep music discussions that often unfold on this forum. When it comes to skaters living up to the character, I think I can give my two cents.

Mirai said she was skating to the character. I didn't think she did a great job in that respect. I know you're a huge Mirai fan, but that doesn't mean I have to love her enough to think her Carmen program was OMFG the best ever - the ultimate program where all discussion of Carmen skates start and end. I'll concede that from what we have seen so far her skate to Carmen music was the best from a skating POV. Maybe you can concede that I have the "credentials" to express my humble opinion.

Edit: And I think I get a bad rap when it comes to Mirai. I'm not a doubter. I just hold my reservations. I also warm to new skaters slowly & it doesn't help that cute + sassy are not my cup of tea.