Butyrskaya vs Suguri

Both of these women were around near the top of their sports a long time but never considered a huge star like some of their peers. Both won 3 World medals but no Olympic medals. Maria has the edge of a World title, and much more Grand Prix success overall, but Fumie is the one who won a Grand Prix final. Who do you think was the better skater with both in their primes (although it never came at the same time vs each other).

I would say Maria for the following reasons:

-Maria came in at a tougher time than Fumie did. Maria was near the top from 96-2002 when Kwan, Chen, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Hughes, at various points were at their best. Fumie was near the top from 2002-2006 when the field began thinning out with injuries and aging to the veterans like Kwan and Slutskaya, the retirement of Hughes, and no new stars other than the inconsistent Cohen and the erratic late blooming Arakawa. Despite this Maria has overall outdone Fumie's accomplishments.

-Both spent most of their careers as just bronze contenders. However Maria at her peak in 99-2001 was a major threat to win Worlds. Fumie was never a threat to win a World title.

-Maria actually had a great shot at an Olympic medal in 1998 atleast where despite a subpar LP she missed the bronze by only .1. And possibly in 2002 too had she skated better. Fumie in retrospect never really had a shot of an Olympic medal considering she couldnt have skated much better in 2006 and still wasnt really close (despite coming 4th) and in 2002 she wasnt ever really a possible medalist, despite winning bronze at the post Olympic Worlds where Hughes had withdrawn.


Comparing their skating I would say technically Fumie is a bit superior and Maria is artistically much superior. In terms of consistency Maria is more consistent on the grand prix, Fumie more consistent skating her best in major events.

It's hard to vote for Maria on this poll on the basic of 'artistry', given that she skated to that absysmal 7 years (minutes) in spring music for more than one season.

Not to mention the heron-like jump stalking of her lutz.

But I've still got to do it.

Suguri is worse.

Plus Maria at one time or another could land all her triples. Suguri? Not.

Plus the World Championship, especially one won over Kwan, counts hugely.

There's not much more I can add that hasn't already been stated. I like them both, but I would have to give the nod to Masha whom I prefer. I still feel she "wuzrobbed" of World bronze in 2001, Olympic bronze in 1998, and World bronze in 1996.

museksk8r said:

There's not much more I can add that hasn't already been stated. I like them both, but I would have to give the nod to Masha whom I prefer. I still feel she "wuzrobbed" of World bronze in 2001, Olympic bronze in 1998, and World bronze in 1996.

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I agree she should have won all those medals the judges did not give her you listed.

Oddly enough I would have actually given her the 2000 World title which would have made her a back to back World Champion. I know that sounds strange since Kwan hit it out of the park in the long program and Butyrskaya had a subpar performance. However according to the factored points system with the qualifying round results (which I agreed with) and the short program results (which I also agreed with) if Maria had been 2nd in the long over Slutskaya she would have won overall over Kwan. And I think she should have been 2nd in the long over Slutskaya which would have given her a defense of her World title.

Definitely Masha.

Masha had her moments, and plus, it's not easy to win a world title during the era of Kwan dominance.

Fumie was more versatile artistically. She was able to skate to playful music, indie contemporary music, classical music...Butyrskaya was basically only ever able to be ice-cold in her presentation.

In terms of their best performances ever I would put Fumie slightly ahead artistically as well. Her 2002 LP at Worlds has a bit more depth for me than Butyrskaya's 1999 LP at Worlds. Fumie's 2006 SP also shows more character than Butyrskaya's best SP at 2000 Worlds.

Butyrskaya was gutsier technically, though. Her 1999 World LP definitely ranks above Fumie's 2002 World LP overall because of how complete it was. Butyrskaya also tried a Triple-Triple combination 3 seasons in a row, whereas Fumie basically tried it once or twice and then gave up.

In terms of significant results at Worlds/Olympics they come out basically the same in the placements I would give them:

Suguri - 1 Gold Medal at Worlds (2002), 1 Bronze Medal (2006), two 4th-place finishes (2003 and 2004), one 5th-place finish (2005), and then at Olympics a 4th-place finish (2006) and a 5th-place finish (2002).

Butyrskaya - 1 Gold Medal at Worlds (1999), 1 Bronze Medal (1998), three 4th-place finishes (1996, 2000, 2001), one 5th-place finish (1997), and then at Olympics a 5th-place finish (1998) and a 6th-place finish (2002).

So it's hard to decide. Butyrskaya wins for single best performance between the two (1999 Worlds) but I think I prefer Suguri's overall body of work.

So Fumie with 5 triples and a doubled triple loop deserved the 2002 World title over the 2 legends of her time- Kwan and Slutskaya both skating wonderfully with 6 triples. Is she getting a home country bonus or something. And while her 2002 programs were good and probably the best ever for her skating it didnt erase her flaws in posture, stretch, and her lack of fire in her skating, all which Dick Button correctly points out. And how can Butyrskaya deserve only 4th overall at the 2000 Worlds when she was the clear and deserving winner of the short program that year (even though Irina and Michelle also had strong shorts) and skated atleast a 4th place long program. I am also surprised anyone who not think she was hosed in atleast one of 1996 or 2001 if not both (I personally think she was at the 98 Olympic by a technically weak Chen too but I know I am in the minority there).

pangtongfan said:

So Fumie with 5 triples and a doubled triple loop deserved the 2002 World title over the 2 legends of her time- Kwan and Slutskaya both skating wonderfully with 6 triples. Is she getting a home country bonus or something. And while her 2002 programs were good and probably the best ever for her skating it didnt erase her flaws in posture, stretch, and her lack of fire in her skating.

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She did not lack fire in her LP at 2002 Worlds. I could feel her soul in that performance. Her posture and stretch were fine. Overall I found her interpretation to be the best. Kwan skated great of course but her second Triple Lutz was underrotated, which took a bit of excitement out of that moment, and the ending felt just a tiny bit rushed to me. I could really go either way with the ranking of their LP's but overall Fumie's performance feels a little more special.

Slutskaya definitely deserved 3rd. She may have been the strongest technically but it was not a good program and if anyone deserves to be criticized for lacking fire in their performance, especially when skating to TOSCA, it's her.

pangtongfan said:

And how can Butyrskaya deserve only 4th overall at the 2000 Worlds when she was the clear and deserving winner of the short program that year (even though Irina and Michelle also had strong shorts) and skated atleast a 4th place long program.

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Butyrskaya wasn't so much better than the other top Ladies in the SP at that competition. I would have given her a 5.7/5.8, and then 5.6/5.9 for Kwan, 5.7/5.7 for Slutskaya, and 5.6/5.8 for Gusmeroli. Quite close. She gets 1st in the SP because the technical mark is the tiebreaker there.

In the LP I give her 5.5/5.7 (4th) in comparison to 5.6/5.8 for Gusmeroli (2nd) and 5.7/5.6 (3rd) for Slutskaya. That drops her down to 4th overall. She should have tried for more technical content.

pangtongfan said:

I am also surprised anyone who not think she was hosed in atleast one of 1996 or 2001 if not both (I personally think she was at the 98 Olympic by a technically weak Chen too but I know I am in the minority there).

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Butyrskaya's LP was weaker than Chen's on technical merit in 1998; I've no clue what you're talking about. Butyrskaya did 5 Triples and out of those, 2 were shaky and none were in combination. Chen had 6 Triples with 1 step out and 1 shaky landing. It's important that she repeated the Lutz, though, and did both the Lutz and Toeloop in combination. And then in terms of presentation it's not even close. Chen gave one of the most inspired performances ever whereas Butyrskaya looked uncomfortable the whole time and skated tepidly and didn't end with any excitement at all.

I would have placed Butyrskaya 6th in the LP at 1998 Olympics, in fact. Irina Slutskaya (4th in the LP) had much stronger technical merit and actually better presentation too. She may have been less mature but at least she looked like she enjoyed what she was doing out there and had charm. Vanessa Gusmeroli (5th in the LP) was equally lacking technically in comparison to Butyrskaya, but her artistry was better.

In 2001 Sarah Hughes was better in the LP. It's really not even a question to me. She skated delightfully whereas Butyrskaya was lackluster. I see more justification for calling a "wuzrobbed" in 1996 but ultimately I feel the placement was correct. Slutskaya's LP had more technical content and she was deservedly ahead after the SP if you needed a reason to pick between the two of them.

Mainly, I just don't think Butyrskaya's presentation was that great. 1999 Worlds is the only time I would even give her higher than a 5.7 for presentation in the LP. A few people seem to treat her like a Russian Michelle Kwan/Lu Chen, but I don't see that at all. Both her choreography and her ability as a performer were never as good. Vanessa Gusmeroli showed more creativity during the same period. There's an underrated skater.

Blades of Passion said:

She did not lack fire in her LP at 2002 Worlds. I could feel her soul in that performance. Her posture and stretch were fine. Overall I found her interpretation to be the best. Kwan skated great of course but her second Triple Lutz was underrotated, which took a bit of excitement out of that moment, and the ending felt just a tiny bit rushed to me. I could really go either way with the ranking of their LP's but overall Fumie's performance feels a little more special.

Slutskaya definitely deserved 3rd. She may have been the strongest technically but it was not a good program and if anyone deserves to be criticized for lacking fire in their performance, especially when skating to TOSCA, it's her.

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Whatever, to your own as usual I guess. You are probably the only person outside of Tokyo who thinks Fumie deserved better than 3rd at the 2002 Worlds.

Butyrskaya wasn't so much better than the other top Ladies in the SP at that competition. I would have given her a 5.7/5.8, and then 5.6/5.9 for Kwan, 5.7/5.7 for Slutskaya, and 5.6/5.8 for Gusmeroli. Quite close. She gets 1st in the SP because the technical mark is the tiebreaker there.

In the LP I give her 5.5/5.7 (4th) in comparison to 5.6/5.8 for Gusmeroli (2nd) and 5.7/5.6 (3rd) for Slutskaya. That drops her down to 4th overall. She should have tried for more technical content.

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You insanely overrate Gusmeroli. I noticed that through basically ALL your placings of her in the World medals thread you first started but didnt say anything since I dont like insulting others opinions (but in your case you have done it to me often enough I shouldnt feel any qualms about it). She is not nearly as good a skater as you seem to think she is. The jerkiness of her whole body is about equivalent to the jerkiness in Butyrskaya's knees on a bad day. Her jumps usually land with a wild whip. She cant do decent footwork, and while she has some interesting spins they are usually sloppy. That is all on a good day, she is inconsistent as heck as well. I was frankly stunned to see some of the placings you gave her (eg- her 3rd at the 99 Worlds as well). You are free your views on her, but Dick Button actually called her one of the most overscored skaters in the World at the time, and also believed at the 2000 Worlds the only reason Hughes finished below her was Worlds was in France.

And how you give think Kwan's good but not exactly hit program to the Beatles was stronger artistically than Maria's best ever mesmorizing short program that night I have no idea either. Anyway here would be my marks for the 2 programs:

Short program:

Butyrskaya 5.9 technical, 6.0 artistic
Slutskaya 5.8 technical, 5.8 artistic
Kwan 5.7 technical, 5.8 artistic
Hughes 5.5 technical, 5.6 artistic
Gusmeroli 5.5 technical, 5.5 artistic (only have her even close to Hughes because of Hughes's huge flutz since Hughes has way better spins, spirals, even footwork, and had a better program and basic skating too)


Free program:

Kwan 5.8 technical, 5.9 artistic
Slutskaya 5.8 technical, 5.7 artistic
Butyrskaya 5.6 technical, 5.8 artistic
Gusmeroli 5.6 technical, 5.6 artistic
Hughes 5.5 technical, 5.6 artistic

Butyrskaya's LP was weaker than Chen's on technical merit in 1998; I've no clue what you're talking about. Butyrskaya did 5 Triples and out of those, 2 were shaky and none were in combination. Chen had 6 Triples with 1 step out and 1 shaky landing. It's important that she repeated the Lutz, though, and did both the Lutz and Toeloop in combination. And then in terms of presentation it's not even close. Chen gave one of the most inspired performances ever whereas Butyrskaya looked uncomfortable the whole time and skated tepidly and didn't end with any excitement at all.

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Chen badly underrotated the 2nd triple lutz, in fact nearly every jump she did was either underrotated and barely rotated in time, not to mention stalked. Her spins sucked royally, they were probably some of the worst of the entire 20-plus women field. And the judges gave Butyrskaya higher technical marks than Chen so inspite of their giving Chen the bronze even they would disagree with you. There is a reason in the short program one judge gave former World Champion Lu Chen a 4.9 for required elements despite a fairly clean skate. Her technical skills were weak by 98 even when she didnt self destruct, and she was lucky to somehow scrape out a medal inspite of this.

In 2001 Sarah Hughes was better in the LP. It's really not even a question to me. She skated delightfully whereas Butyrskaya was lackluster. I see more justification for calling a "wuzrobbed" in 1996 but ultimately I feel the placement was correct. Slutskaya's LP had more technical content and she was deservedly ahead after the SP if you needed a reason to pick between the two of them.

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Hughes wasnt better than Butyrskaya in either program at the 2001 Worlds. Butyrskaya was majorly robbed to be below her in the SP (which with her bad Q round cost her a medal). I actually thought the LP between the two was closer than the SP, I was shocked at Maria's such low marks in the SP for no apparent reason.

As for the 96 Worlds Irina was laughably overmarked. Her LP had a huge crash on her first triple lutz, a shaky 2nd triple lutz, some wobbly spins, and the most little girl immature presentation which on that night she didnt skate with her usual speed or project at all. Her marks especialy as the 1st skater in the final flight were a joke, some judges had her closer to Chen than they had Chen to Kwan which was absurd. Maria's long program was about on par technically and much stronger artistically and would have beaten Irina no problem had Irina not already been pre judged to atleast medal after her strong season. Szewcenko and Kwiatkowski also would have beaten Slutskaya in the LP in a fair World.

Vanessa Gusmeroli showed more creativity during the same period. There's an underrated skater.

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More she is an extremely overrated skater by you. The judges more or less see her for what she is which is good second tier skater of that era without top notch technical or artistic skills. She had creativity I agree, good for her, that on its own does not a top tier skater make, even Laurent Tobel showed amazing creativity.

Butyrskaya wasn't so much better than the other top Ladies in the SP at that competition. I would have given her a 5.7/5.8, and then 5.6/5.9 for Kwan, 5.7/5.7 for Slutskaya, and 5.6/5.8 for Gusmeroli. Quite close. She gets 1st in the SP because the technical mark is the tiebreaker there.

In the LP I give her 5.5/5.7 (4th) in comparison to 5.6/5.8 for Gusmeroli (2nd) and 5.7/5.6 (3rd) for Slutskaya. That drops her down to 4th overall. She should have tried for more technical content.

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You also have to keep in mind the qualifying performances - Maria was an undeniable 1st in her group - she landed 6 triples and her only mistake was a hand down on her 2axel (it was a much better performance than the one she gave in the LP). Whereas Vanessa bombed and finished 7th. So even with your SP and FP placements, Maria would have medalled.

artsciboy said:

You also have to keep in mind the qualifying performances - Maria was an undeniable 1st in her group - she landed 6 triples and her only mistake was a hand down on her 2axel (it was a much better performance than the one she gave in the LP). Whereas Vanessa bombed and finished 7th. So even with your SP and FP placements, Maria would have medalled.

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Blades rules out qualifying round or compulsory figure results.

pangtongfan said:

You insanely overrate Gusmeroli. I noticed that through basically ALL your placings of her in the World medals thread you first started but didnt say anything since I dont like insulting others opinions (but in your case you have done it to me often enough I shouldnt feel any qualms about it). She is not nearly as good a skater as you seem to think she is. The jerkiness of her whole body is about equivalent to the jerkiness in Butyrskaya's knees on a bad day. Her jumps usually land with a wild whip. She cant do decent footwork, and while she has some interesting spins they are usually sloppy. That is all on a good day, she is inconsistent as heck as well.

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Her jumps were often huge and finished rotating before landing. She certainly can do decent footwork as well. A little bit of sloppiness in the spins is fine considering she attempted some of the most difficult, unusual spins. It's not like she traveled drastically or fell out of the positions. Her expression is superior to Butyrskaya's and while her stroking may have had some jerkiness at times, her body movement was superior. She used her hands more effectively. Her choreography was more inventive.

pangtongfan said:

She had creativity I agree, good for her, that on its own does not a top tier skater make, even Laurent Tobel showed amazing creativity.

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Laurent Tobel was undermarked for his contributions as well. Gusmeroli had more than creativity, as I've already talked about. She may have been very inconsistent but she certainly was not lacking in terms of technical ability when she did hit the elements. She was capable of doing all the Triples with lots of height and correct edges. Her non-jump elements were solid.

pangtongfan said:

And how you give think Kwan's good but not exactly hit program to the Beatles was stronger artistically than Maria's best ever mesmorizing short program that night I have no idea either.

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Maria's program wasn't mesmerizing. It was too simplistic, although quite nice. Kwan's program tapped into a wider range of emotions and had a stronger usage of technical elements. Her footwork sequence was brilliant with the music. The transition from the Spiral into the Combination Spin was excellent. Using the flying sit in the final part of the program fit the music perfectly. Maria's elements often sat on top of the music more than becoming one with the music.

pangtongfan said:

[in 1998] Chen badly underrotated the 2nd triple lutz. Her spins sucked royally

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No she didn't, it was within a 1/4 turn. Many of her jumps were close but they were there nonetheless. It's not as if Butyrskaya had high quality jumps. Lu Chen certainly did NOT stalk her jumps more than Butyrskaya either. Nor did Lu Chen's spins "suck"; they were used brilliantly with the music and generally had good line and very nice arm positions while spinning. They weren't very "difficult" but spins hardly factored into technical merit in the LP with 6.0. They were more important as part of the choreography, as they SHOULD be.

pangtongfan said:

Hughes wasnt better than Butyrskaya in either program at the 2001 Worlds.

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Yes she was. Her LP had more energy, less breaks in flow, and even with the flutzes it was a more difficult program since Butyrskaya doubled out on her second Lutz.

pangtongfan said:

As for the 96 Worlds Irina was laughably overmarked. Her LP had a huge crash on her first triple lutz, a shaky 2nd triple lutz, some wobbly spins, and the most little girl immature. Maria's long program was about on par technically and much stronger artistically and would have beaten Irina no problem had Irina not already been pre judged to atleast medal after her strong season.

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Maria's LP was not on par technically. Her Lutz was more flawed than the one Slutskaya landed and out of the rest of the program she had 4 Triples in comparison to 5 for Slutskaya, a shakier double axel, and only one combination jump. Butyrskaya's spins were certainly not better either. Her program had more maturity but she didn't perform it with nearly enough panache. Look at that tepid Spiral Sequence and the lack of command at the end of the program. She only deserved to be .1 ahead on presentation, which isn't enough with her technical deficiency.

There is no point typing a response as we will never agree on anything it seems. So I will just make my final statments to you on this thread.

Chen's spins in Nagano were atrocious, they were weak in everyway- positions, speed, difficulty and many of them traveled badly off centre. Please watch them again. Her only nice spin was the layback, although less so by 98 than before, her camel spins were even pitiful by 98. And Maria's jumps in 1998 were certainly better than Chen's were, I didnt say they were amazing but they were easily better than the ones Chen was doing at that point. And spins ARE a part of the technical mark under 6.0, I dont know where you got the crazy idea they werent. Read the 6.0 system rules.

And Slutskaya in 1996 would have gotten a 5.2 for presentation, especialy for her lackluster and tenative Edmonton LP with a huge opening splat if she were anyone but the new European Champion and darling of the Russian federation and European judging community. Even Kwiatkowski's LP was better.

And lastly no way on this planet Suguri deserved to win the 2002 Worlds. I dont care if that is your opinion, you are still 200% wrong on that. Her performance was good enough for her, although not even the best she has ever done, but not even in the same league as either Slutskaya or Kwan.

pangtongfan said:

And Maria's jumps in 1998 were certainly better than Chen's were, I didnt say they were amazing but they were easily better than the ones Chen was doing at that point.

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Perhaps Maria's jumps were better at their best but in her actual performance they were not. Her Lutz was titled and touched down with the free foot. Her Loop had a jarring landing. Her Toeloop was not better than Chen's. The Salchow was a little better and the Flip was better, but she didn't do any combinations and she didn't repeat any Triples, whereas Lu Chen had the second 3Lutz.

pangtongfan said:

And spins ARE a part of the technical mark under 6.0, I dont know where you got the crazy idea they werent.

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They were much more a part of technical merit in the SP. In the LP they were treated mainly as choreography. A bad flub on a spin could hurt your technical mark and particularly excellent spins might give you a small boost but otherwise, no. Witness Alexei Urmanov's technical scores in his 1994 Olympic LP for proof of how little spins were cared about in the LP for technical merit.

Fumie is not really comparable to Maria. In 1999 Butyrskaya became the oldest World Champion in history at 26, a distinction she retains over Slutskaya (2005) by a few months. She dragged her career out another three seasons, with mixed but memorable results. Masha almost won bronze at 2001 Worlds at age 28. It was only because Hughes had a higher ordinal in the qualifying that Masha did not.

Fumie is now almost 29 and has not accomplished anything for the last three years. Since turning 26, Fumie has gone off the page, only to show up again this year at two GPs. Yes, she is very good for an old lady. Her jumps are still strong, but I feel I should mention that her programs are no longer watchable or tasteful (her bra and ill-fitting Wal-Mart jean costume).

Fumie was a talented young skater. Maria was a talented old one. What they have in common is longevity. Their career trajectories are sort of the inverse of one another.

A skater who had more in common with Butyrskaya is Shizuka Arakawa. Shizuka achieved her best results only relatively late in her game. She bowed out of course much earlier, at age 24, after winning the Olympic title. But Arakawa was around forever, having competed at the 1998 Olympics. Arakawa, like Butyrskaya, spent many years wondering in semi-disfavor with her federation and obscurity until she won the World title in 2004.

TheIronLady said:

Fumie is not really comparable to Maria. In 1999 Butyrskaya became the oldest World Champion in history at 26, a distinction she retains over Slutskaya (2005) by a few months. She dragged her career out another three seasons, with mixed but memorable results. Masha almost won bronze at 2001 Worlds at age 28. It was only because Hughes had a higher ordinal in the qualifying that Masha did not.

Fumie is now almost 29 and has not accomplished anything for the last three years. Since turning 26, Fumie has gone off the page, only to show up again this year at two GPs. Yes, she is very good for an old lady. Her jumps are still strong, but I feel I should mention that her programs are no longer watchable or tasteful (her bra and ill-fitting Wal-Mart jean costume).

Fumie was a talented young skater. Maria was a talented old one. What they have in common is longevity. Their career trajectories are sort of the inverse of one another.

A skater who had more in common with Butyrskaya is Shizuka Arakawa. Shizuka achieved her best results only relatively late in her game. She bowed out of course much earlier, at age 24, after winning the Olympic title. But Arakawa was around forever, having competed at the 1998 Olympics. Arakawa, like Butyrskaya, spent many years wondering in semi-disfavor with her federation and obscurity until she won the World title in 2004.

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Excellent point. I remember when DivaKawa was thought of as "the other Japanese skater"... talk about a remarkable turnaround.

Now, as much as I'd like to agree with the "Maria is better than Fumie" sentiment - I must disagree with the convential wisdom. Neither skater was great but both had the uncanny ability to step up when others faltered. Maria in 1999 when Michelle had the slip in the short. Fumie's two bronze medals. Where I give the edge to Fumie is her historical relevance in keeping the Ladies alive in Japan during the dry period. Regardless of who was being talked about, you knew that Fumie would be in mix. Maria didn't have that distinction. Plus her weird non-bending knees drove me crazy, despite my personal liking for the whole "Ice Queen" thing...

Kwanford Wife said:

Maria in 1999 when Michelle had the slip in the short. Fumie's two bronze medals.

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Maria though decisively won the LP over Michelle who while she didnt skate totally clean didnt skate badly either. Maria had all 9 first place votes in both programs, one of the most decisive World Championship wins in the last 12 years. So Fumie needed multiple people to make mistakes to win a bronze medal (or in one case a silver), while Maria needed only 1 person to make mistakes to win a gold medal. And Maria won the short program at the 2000 Worlds decisively over Irina and Michelle both, both whom skated very well as well. Fumie would never be capable of that.

I do agree with you on Fumie keeping Japanese womens skating alive during the dry period though. She deserves credit for that. A shame she could never reach the top while in the later years of her careers younger skaters and a same age contemporary just flew by her to the top. Shizuka's Olympic win were Fumie was 4th with the same content and same mistakes must have been a sobering moment of sorts for her.

I voted for Butyrskaya, because of her winning the world title, mostly (especially over Kwan as others have pointed out.. and the oldest woman to win too).

Suguri had good soft knees. Butyrskaya did not.