TEB Free Dance Virtual Program and Preview: Sat. Nov 27, 2:40 PM EST | Page 2 | Golden Skate

TEB Free Dance Virtual Program and Preview: Sat. Nov 27, 2:40 PM EST

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
What does "soul" mean? That they feel the music? I think that's definitely true. That they can convey what they feel to the music? I think that P/B have major issues there. I see what they're trying to do, but it just doesn't move me. They don't hit particularly beautiful positions, they don't wow me with technical audacity, their programs don't thrill me as cohesive wholes, despite that fact they think of them that way. This is especially true of their SD, which manages to remove anything epic about "Dr. Zhivago." They deserve their wins, no begrudging them that, but if they become the world champions this year... I'll be massively disappointed in this year for dance.

Davis/White are playing the long game here. I think people expected some kind of instant domination without Virtue/Moir and with that not happening, we're sounding the alarms.
 

samba

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
She's a lot thinner now-perhaps she can do so!

BTW, I thought they were easy on Chock Zuerlein-not for mistakes, but for levels on the GW.
I would have gone with Lev 4/Lev3 for them, not Lev4/Lev4, likewise for Cannuscio Lorello.

I agree, the GW level was definitely too generous.
Doris, can you explain the level 4 twizzles on C/L's SD? I thought they got level 3 on the same element in FD, why?? To get level 4, I thought they have to hold their blades too?
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I enjoyed the dances of the lower teams, with the only exception being Ralph/Hill. I just can't get into that version of Summertime. They looked pissed off about their scores. Well, Kharis quickly put on a fake smile but Asher looked pissed off the whole time, lol.

I really like Carron and Jones' dance even though I've heard people say some negative things about it. Riazanova and Tkachenko's is sort of boring to me, but they are a good team. I like Chock and Zuerlein's but I agree with the poster who said that Greg is sorta awkward. I looove Pechalat and Bourzat even more than I did already this year. I'd like them to not let Davis and White run away with all the titles this season, esp. since I think Davis and White's programs are weaker this year than last. Don't get me wrong, I like Davis and White but it's more exciting when there's some tight competition (and I highly doubt Virtue and Moir will be 'better' for Worlds, although you never know.)
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
To me, D/W don't get the tango at all this season. No real passionate emotion or chemistry and just big tricks set to the music without any relation. I totally disagree with ImaginaryPogue - P/B picked a mood and theme, set it from the beginning and the program works as a cohesive whole and I barely think about what element is next.

Besides, P/B are simply more elegant. Better posture and lines and they are less frantic looking. Things like D/W bad posture really bother me.
 
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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Interesting comments about D/W. As I said in previous comments, D/W could have gone the easy route and did a POTO type FS and dominate this season. That is clearly not their goal. They are responding to all their weaknesses that have caused them to be second to V/M (and getting beat by other teams) in this last quad.

I think one observation should be made. Even though D/W lost four points in falls and extended lifts with totally revamped (hence, somewhat unpolished) programs at Skate America, had low levels at NHK and that the TEB judges seem generous with levels here,P/B couldn't get the No. 1 spot for GPF. That should tell everyone something. The judges like P/B for sure, but it's clear that they still like D/W quite a bit and what they're trying to do this season.

That said, I do realize it's close and I think there is a message to D/W, which they already got I'm sure, that this decision will require them to work a little. And I think they will. Those guys are workhorses.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Interesting comments about D/W. As I said in previous comments, D/W could have gone the easy route and did a POTO type FS and dominate this season. That is clearly not their goal. They are responding to all their weaknesses that have caused them to be second to V/M (and getting beat by other teams) in this last quad.

I think one observation should be made. Even though D/W lost four points in falls and extended lifts with totally revamped (hence, somewhat unpolished) programs at Skate America, had low levels at NHK and that the TEB judges seem generous with levels here,P/B couldn't get the No. 1 spot for GPF. That should tell everyone something. The judges like P/B for sure, but it's clear that they still like D/W quite a bit and what they're trying to do this season.

That said, I do realize it's close and I think there is a message to D/W, which they already got I'm sure, that this decision will require them to work a little. And I think they will. Those guys are workhorses.

You can't compare scores cross competitions. We have to wait and see what the judges do when the two teams face each other. The fact of the matter is that every time the French step out on the ice, their scores go up.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
It's hard not to look good when the 2nd place team could only manage 5th place at Skate America ... and at home, too.

I'll check out C&L's twizzles and get back to you all on them, and what level they should be, with exact reasons, rather than just off the top of my head.

D&W have obviously planned their season goals with the expetation of V&M returning to competition!

That should thrill all V&M fans, I think :)
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
It's hard not to look good when the 2nd place team could only manage 5th place at Skate America ... and at home, too.

I'll check out C&L's twizzles and get back to you all on them, and what level they should be, with exact reasons, rather than just off the top of my head.

D&W have obviously planned their season goals with the expetation of V&M returning to competition!

That should thrill all V&M fans, I think :)

Its not like P/B didn't win big in China, with the reigning world bronze medalists and B/S. :rollseyes:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
No, it isn't. They did great in China. And F&S bombed big in China-we can't say we really know how an in shape F&S will do against them, or for that matter against D&W. And 2nd place was Bobrova.

As to Cannuscio & Lorello's twizzles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itz1xsWBoPA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itz1xsWBoPA#t=0m45s
SD to Piano Man

ISU Comm 1611 p. 14

C&L do one foot twizzles, similar to what many of the Russian teams do & have been doing. Those are "Option 2" twizzles.

OPTION 2****
Both Twizzles at least 4 rotations on one foot without change
of foot.
AND
** 2 different additional features in total for both partners
chosen from the list below (must be from different Groups)


The two features were
Group C
• Entrance to the first Twizzle from the Jump of ½ rotation (the entry edge for the Twizzle will be determined by the landing edge of the jump)

The second feature was from Group A, which deals with what they did with arms & upper body. They had their arms behind their back in the first set and one arm up and moving on the second set.

So if they had 4 rotations or more each way, they get level 4. If they shorted the second set to less than 4 rotations, they get level 3.
 

samba

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
Thanks Doris. I guess they must have shorted one rotation in FD, since they got lower level on the same element? I also saw P/B did 3 sets of Twizzles, do they get higher level or more GOE?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
If you are doing option 1 twizzles (not on the same foot), which AFAIR remember, P&B do, you have to have 3 Options (new this year), one from each group. The most popular features to choose from the new Group C so far have been the entry from a 1/2 revolution jump or alternatively doing 3 sets of twizzles. So it's P&B's third feature to hope to get Level 4 on the twizzles.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
To me, D/W don't get the tango at all this season. No real passionate emotion or chemistry and just big tricks set to the music without any relation. I totally disagree with ImaginaryPogue - P/B picked a mood and theme, set it from the beginning and the program works as a cohesive whole and I barely think about what element is next.

Besides, P/B are simply more elegant. Better posture and lines and they are less frantic looking. Things like D/W bad posture really bother me.

I disagree about P/B, obviously. I agree somewhat about D/W with a note that if this program stayed at the same level it's been at, I'd be disappointed, but I expect them to grow with the program.
 

samba

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
If you are doing option 1 twizzles (not on the same foot), which AFAIR remember, P&B do, you have to have 3 Options (new this year), one from each group. The most popular features to choose from the new Group C so far have been the entry from a 1/2 revolution jump or alternatively doing 3 sets of twizzles. So it's P&B's third feature to hope to get Level 4 on the twizzles.

Thanks Doris. I misunderstood about 3 sets of twizzles because I read an interview in the Icenetwork, Marina said that her students, the Shibs were the one of the best in twizzles in the world, she then added the third set of twizzles in the Shibs' program. However, when I looked back, Maia had problem with same foot twizzles, fell during SD at Nebelhorn. During that competition she really had problem with this element. I guess, they then changed her twizzles to 3 sets to get level 4, according to your explanation. Well, Marina had her way to say things ;).
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Exactly right about the Shibs.

To get level 4, the different foot twizzles are having to change their technique. D&W chose to do the little jump into the twizzles-leading to Charlie putting his foot down in the SA SD twizzle, I think. It just isn't as stable a way to enter a twizzle.

BTW, when looking at a 3 set twizzle, the way the teams will do them is strong foot/weak foot/strong foot, so if you're looking for trouble/form breaks, it will most often be in the 2nd set.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-203579-220802-169393-0-file,00.pdf

Coaches have been asking questions about the rule changes this year, including about the third twizzle set if a team is using the 3 sets of twizzles option:

Q. The skaters decide to use the option of the third Twizzle from the
Group C features. If there is a mistake by one or both partners in
performing these “extra” Twizzles, how does it affect the Level and the
GOE?
A. It only affects the number and type of features counted for the level.
The Judges should consider this mistake as a poor exit and not as one
of the required Twizzles and, while establishing their basic GOE
according to the marking guide included in Communication 1522 page
29, they should lower the “entry/completion” criteria by one or several
grades, like for any other type of poor exit. This may result in lowering
the GOE by one grade.

So if I am reading this correctly, the 3rd set of twizzles is an exit from the 2 sequential twizzles, just like the jump is an entrance.
 

samba

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
Exactly right about the Shibs.

To get level 4, the different foot twizzles are having to change their technique. D&W chose to do the little jump into the twizzles-leading to Charlie putting his foot down in the SA SD twizzle, I think. It just isn't as stable a way to enter a twizzle.

According to her interview, these are the two teams that Marina said had the best twizzles in the world :)
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Whomever Marina is being interviewed about, it seems they are the best in the world at something, if not everything :)

But Shibs & D&W are excellent twizzlers, for sure.

It's hard to change your technique for something when you have been doing it a different way for years.

Same is true of the Golden Waltz. There are some very nice articles in Blades on Ice with interviews with a lot of the Canton, MI, teams about the SD and rule changes this year, and about other stuff as well.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Re Shibs and 3 sets of twizzles. They were practicing this variation when I saw them in Canton in September. So it was clearly an option as to which set of twizzles to incorporate into the program.

And Marina is right about Shibs and D&W twizzles - they are the best, fastest in the sport, but mistakes can be made especially at this kind of speed. Charlie, in particular, likes to push it, but like he said at Skate America, "physics gets in the way."
 

samba

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 23, 2008
Re Shibs and 3 sets of twizzles. They were practicing this variation when I saw them in Canton in September. So it was clearly an option as to which set of twizzles to incorporate into the program.

And Marina is right about Shibs and D&W twizzles - they are the best, fastest in the sport, but mistakes can be made especially at this kind of speed. Charlie, in particular, likes to push it, but like he said at Skate America, "physics gets in the way."

I am not saying that they're not the best twizzles in the world but I said Marina mislead me by saying she added the third set of twizzles because they are the best. It almost sounded like she had the Shibs do extra set because they're very good, not because they did better job in 3 sets twizzles than same foot twizzles. Maia had major fall at Nebelhorn in same foot twizzles, they then changed to 3 sets to get the level4.
 
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