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Thread: Ladies - Free Skate - 11/27

  1. #166
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Actually, the debate about whether falls and other technical mistakes should negatively affect program component scores is quite interesting.

    The criticism used to be the opposite of what we are hearing now. When the CoP first came out everyone complained that the PCSs just tracked the tech scores. If you landed a quad, your component scores automatically went up across the board.

    Now the judges seem to be taking greater care with the component scores. What I would really like to see is a larger spread among the five scores. Lots of Transitions does not necessarily mean outstanding Choreography, for instance.
    In my opinion there should be a balance between technical content and PCS. There are at least 2 PC that are closely related to the technical execution. For me, if a person makes technical errors, for example, they are not showing good skating skills to me. So the question would be "Skater A is known for having overall good skating skills. If Skater A makes errors in jumps, spins, steps, etc., should the Skating Skills score be in accordance to what we see in that particular performance, or should Skater A be judge on the knowledge of their overall skating skills?"

  2. #167
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Judging skaters, judges, the whole scoring system and organizations, by instincts, instant reactions, and accusatory conclusions with no accounting and evidences?
    You have just defined "sports fan."

    Sure, we could be more responsible, objective and diligent. But what's the fun of that?

  3. #168
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    The lack of scatter among the 5 PCS has always BUGGED ME A LOT. As a social scientist all I hear are loud screams of "NO FACE VALIDITY" and "NO VALIDITY." And statistically, of course, having 5 scores means nada/gives no extra info if they're all just going to correlate so highly anyway. Judges should be encouraged to have divergent scores within the 5 PCS and be lauded for distinguishing SS from IN from P/E etc.

    Nevertheless, I'm starting to think all the tweaking of COP might someday lead to a system that comes close to delivering what it promises, if what it promises is rewarding all aspects of skating (i.e., not just jumps) but yet also rewarding in some due measure big fireworks like amazing jumps or breathtaking spins or spirals. That is, I think so in theory, but unfortunately my dislike of the system remains fixed when I actually see (most of) the programs the system produces.

  4. #169
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    I watched right up until Kiira's score was announced and then had to run out for an appointment.

    I am a Mirai fan but thought the podium seemd OK. Maybe it helps that Alissa is my second favorite USA Lady and that I also like Kiira.

    Am glad Mirai does not have to fly back to China for the Final because she still seems far from her best and the training time for Natls is more important than skating at another GP event.

    Not sure what all the fuss was about? Was it over Alissa's bronze? Or Kiira's Gold?

    Anyway - I was happy to see Mirai win a medal and Kiira and Alissa as well.

  5. #170
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru View Post
    For me, if a person makes technical errors, for example, they are not showing good skating skills to me.
    But this might just be a matter of semantics. What if we changed the name from Skating Skills to "Stroking and Edge Work Throughout the Program as a Whole?" Keep all the criteria exactly the same, but just change the label.

    Now would a fall on a jump carry a big reduction in SEWTPW?

    The second of the two "technical components" is Transitions/Linking Moves (between scored elements). It seems possible that a skater could do well in that category even with falls on highlight elements.

    If I were a judge, I think I would be more likely to knock down a skater's Performance and Interpretation scores. It is in th4ese categories that falls can be fatal, IMHO.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-27-2010 at 04:59 PM.

  6. #171
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You have just defined "sports fan."

    Sure, we could be more responsible, objective and diligent. But what's the fun of that?
    LOL!!!!! love it MM!

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    You have just defined "sports fan."

    Sure, we could be more responsible, objective and diligent. But what's the fun of that?
    I know the COP system took away a lot of old fun of arguing about the sport but it gives us a whole new fun way of arguing intensely and extensively!

    Some other sports are simpler in how a win is determined and video replays play a big part in deciding if a goal is scored and which competitor reaches the finish line first. Technology also measure by what fraction of a second is one competitor faster than another, by how many tiny units of measurement is one ahead of another, etc.

    Skating is a lot more intricate than most sports and COP is an attempt to quantify its different elements so that we can all argue about so many fine points than ever before! I would think the nerdier online fans should love that. After all, we are not soccer hooligans.

    But. it's not enough to just declare the scoring wrong because you disagree with it or because the judges are obviously incompetent, corrupt or most likely both. Come on, let's fight by the rules just as the skaters are competing by the rules.

  8. #173
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Not sure what all the fuss was about? Was it over Alissa's bronze? Or Kiira's Gold?
    I think that most people thought Mirai should have won big. Mirai's mistakes (except for the bad spin) were things like edge calls and under-rotations that the average viewer can't see. Whereas both Alissa and Kira had bad falls and obvious botched jumps.

  9. #174
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    I don't think skating will ever gain and maintain fans with the way this sport is judged. I can't say it's not warranted.

  10. #175
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    1. I predicted Korpi, so I'm glad she won. Was rooting for Czisny, I'm glad she's in the final.

    2. wallylutz, you know I agree with you. It does seem, though, like it's a battle not worth fighting. All you get are straw man and ad hominem attacks.

    3. Mirai should've won? Eh, she bores me. I just don't get her.

    4. Canadian's came fourth in three disciplines (Mens, Ladies, Pairs). Americans came third in three disciplines (Men, Ladies, Dance). That kind of sinchronicity makes me smile.

  11. #176
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    Double standard

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    You missed my point, I am not disputing the results here. A case can certainly be made to justify Alissa's ranking here, I can see that, though I won't use the word "artistry" since it doesn't exist in the PCS criteria.

    What I have a problem with is the same crowd who cried foul seem to be very keen and adamant at triple or fall counting until it's a favorite of theirs, then the whole grandiose call for justice and fairness or even CoP reform just take on a blind eye all of a sudden.

    Just want to point out the very obvious hypocrisy and double standard and it's obviously trending here across disciplines and those who do so should be ashamed.

    I totally agree with you wallylutz. It's amazing how Alyssa got over 100.00 after imploding on that FS. I like Alyssa, but I don't think she deserved to be marked that highly. I guess if your name is not Patrick Chan, you don't get that much criticisms. Oh, I guess because she DID NOT fall 4X, right? Chan's falls on the SP+FS get counted together right?

  12. #177
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru View Post
    In my opinion there should be a balance between technical content and PCS. There are at least 2 PC that are closely related to the technical execution. For me, if a person makes technical errors, for example, they are not showing good skating skills to me. So the question would be "Skater A is known for having overall good skating skills. If Skater A makes errors in jumps, spins, steps, etc., should the Skating Skills score be in accordance to what we see in that particular performance, or should Skater A be judge on the knowledge of their overall skating skills?"
    The balance between the Tech and the PCs is a tongue-and-cheek difference. In the original proposal of the SP, the Tech was considered the most important factor but fans cried out for Performance as well, and they pay money to see figure skating live and on tv. The money wins out. BTW, don't be fooled about Skating Skills being a part of the PC scores, because they are obviously a Tech factor, the same as the old school figures were.

    The Sport of Figure Skating lies with the scoring of the Tech. The glamour of Figure Skating lies with the scoring of the PC, but it creeps into the Tech also. The costumes, the makeup, the music, the style, and the cuteness, are all hidden factors in the PC.

  13. #178
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    4. Canadian's came fourth in three disciplines (Mens, Ladies, Pairs). Americans came third in three disciplines (Men, Ladies, Dance). That kind of sinchronicity makes me smile.
    Will we ever get away from the importance of Nationality in figure skating? Can we just enjoy the sport and the winner (if we agree) without reference to a Nationality?

  14. #179
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    3. Mirai should've won? Eh, she bores me. I just don't get her.

    .
    An interesting point. Is it just as interesting that even more people don't get Joannie?
    Fortunately I have seen enough skating in my life to know both Mirai and Joannie are very good skaters.

  15. #180
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    1. No we won't, Joesitz.

    2. In this case, I like extraneous facts that together have a kind of harmony. For example, I like that Aliona and Robin have both have three-syllable last names beginning with "S". I admire the seemingly diverse group of skaters that France has.

    3. I can definitely understand why people don't get Joannie, janetfan. I think it's the difference between natural vs earned/developed talent. But I was more playing on the consistency of the cries that "Mirai should've won" (US Nationals last season, robbed of the bronze cries at Olympics). I fully expect at next year's Nationals, when it's Czisny has the top spot and it's between Flatt and Nagasu to hear those exact same cries. Whatever "it" is, Mirai clearly has it for a lot of people.

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