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Thread: The Finalists and the substitutes - MEN

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    Fact:There is a big difference in points between a 4T and 3T as a quad is extremely difficult to do while 3T is the lowest ranked triple. Sussessful 4Ts are done by only a handful of skaters whereas any advanced skater can do 3Ts, which are often easily tacked on another jump at will to make a jump combo. Do you accept this fact?

    A 4T under rotated by 1/2 turn is classified as 3T, maybe a little over-rotated, but not a 4T. Agree?

    -1 or -2 GOE for stepping out or hand down, and -3 GOE plus 1 point deduction for falling (-4 total), agree?

    Thus a fall on a fully rotated 4T is higher in skills and points than a stepped out 3T. Only a handful of skaters can fully rotate a quad, falling or not, whereas nobody falls on a 3T in a major competition. The difference in difficulty levels of a 3T and a 4T is just that huge. However, falling on a fully rotated triple is not rewarding or worth more than a successful double in most cases.

    Staying on their feet may be prettier but is quite easy to accomplish - do easy stuff and avoid riskier harder elements. If you think staying on their feet is of foremost importance, then watch skating shows. Skating is an Olympic sport and in a competition, skaters compete mostly on their technical skills (~70%), plus presentation (~ 30%).
    Thanks! Totally agree! You explained so well!

  2. #17
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    How about Verner in 1st? That would make me one happy camper!

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    How about Verner in 1st? That would make me one happy camper!
    I love Tomas, but it would pretty much have to be a splatfest of epic proportions for Tomas to place first in this field. I mean, imagine how horribly both Patrick and Daisuke (the favoured ones this season, no doubt) would have to skate for Tomas to place above them....

    I'll be putting my money on Tomas for the European title, though--that seems to be what he's aiming for anyways.

  4. #19
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    Verner did the Olympic gold medalist program at COR. He is doing what worked to win Olympic Gold. Kozuka got 89 in tech at Cup of France and Verner got 77ish when it wasn't clean. Takahashi and Chan have also got 80 plus. Clean I think Verner could get to over 80 with his quadless for progress, regress for success method which also won Olympic gold.

  5. #20
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    It took both Chan and Abbott underperforming for Verner to win COR. At the GPF, he would need 4 front runners to splat early and splat often to accomplish that, if he really brings it himself.

    A program with the same jump layout as the Olympic winner is not the same program. Even that Olympic program might not have won if Daisuke had landed his quad or rotated it and was scored by this year's rules. Verner's program is lacking and his skills are not at the same level as the top 4.

    He certainly can be the top European though.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Verner did the Olympic gold medalist program at COR. He is doing what worked to win Olympic Gold. Kozuka got 89 in tech at Cup of France and Verner got 77ish when it wasn't clean. Takahashi and Chan have also got 80 plus. Clean I think Verner could get to over 80 with his quadless for progress, regress for success method which also won Olympic gold.
    I was more thinking, Tomas has pretty competitive PCS, he got 78 for his FS in Russia and that's right about what the other men usually get, apart from Chan and Takahashi who just have 80+ for PCS every time. Realistically I don't think he will win, I just meant it would be cool if he somehow managed to, and after what happened last year, where both Lysacek and Weir were on the podium and neither did any quads, and Takahashi ended up all the way down in 5th, you never know what could happen. I tend to think he'll end up placing somewhere between 3rd and 5th, but I do think 3rd is not entirely out of the question, especially considering Chan, Takahashi, and Oda - the medal favorites, have been making lots of errors so far this season.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Verner did the Olympic gold medalist program at COR. He is doing what worked to win Olympic Gold. Kozuka got 89 in tech at Cup of France and Verner got 77ish when it wasn't clean. Takahashi and Chan have also got 80 plus. Clean I think Verner could get to over 80 with his quadless for progress, regress for success method which also won Olympic gold.
    I think he said he's gonna try the quad at the GPF though

  8. #23
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    Hi Skatefiguring:

    Thank you for educating me about difficulty of 3T and 4T. It is very informative.

    But I am not comparing 3t and 4t. I am comparing the points that skaters get after failed 4t attempt.

    For example, in Cup of china, Brain J landed a beautiful 4t in FS but it was considered to be under rotated, so he got only 6.20 due to double deduction (70%+ -1 goe.)
    Here's video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSTFqCYKlvs

    And This is Chan's famous huge step out on 4t in Skate Canada, which gave him 7.3 points, since it was considered to be fully rotated and he got only GOE desuction of -3 potints.
    Here's the video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et17q...eature=related

    I really do not agree that almost perfect jumps by naked eyes get lower points than apparent failed attempt.

  9. #24
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    Hi Genki.

    Chan also got an additional -1 for the fall besides the -3 GOE. So he lost 4 points on a fully rotated quad, making his 4T worth 6.3, vs 6.2 for Joubert's underrotated one. Not such great injustice, especially if we also compare the quality and degree of difficulty of their jumps as well. Joubert strokes around basically on 2 feet for his entry whereas Chan gathers speed with hardly any stroking and did footwork into his 4T.

    I have a different set of comparison for you. Here's Chan's Take Five as a show program, clean as a whistle. In fact, I read many skating fans who watched this live and gushed over him online, saying how impressive he was live, with incredible skating and huge jumps, and he converted a few critics into fans. Well, that lovely performance would likely not put him on a podium, especially in a major competition like GPF or Worlds. He has been landing his quads consistently in practice but the only way to have it consistent in competitions is to practice them in competitions. Sure, he fell in SC, the GP debut, but if he hadn't kept at it in the next competition, we wouldn't have seen this gorgeous 4T/3T in Cup Of Russia. Now here he fell on a fully rotated 3A after step sequence, but this is a winning competitive program where he pushes the limit. It's not clean as the show program, but truly exciting, courageous and quite thrilling for the skating fans and it scored with the judges.

    Yes, it's easy for even Patrick to skate clean when he downgrades the jumps, which is fine and entertaining in a show. But a competition is a different situation all together. The kid needs some time and competition experience with his extra difficult elements. I give him kudos for always pushing himself by adding to rather than replacing what he does on ice.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Verner did the Olympic gold medalist program at COR. He is doing what worked to win Olympic Gold. Kozuka got 89 in tech at Cup of France and Verner got 77ish when it wasn't clean. Takahashi and Chan have also got 80 plus. Clean I think Verner could get to over 80 with his quadless for progress, regress for success method which also won Olympic gold.
    Thanks to the Olympic gold medalist program, new quad rules are introduced. I agree most of the judges and fans don't want to see quadless champions again at major competitions.

  11. #26
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    Hi Skatefiguring

    Not such great injustice, especially if we also compare the quality and degree of difficulty of their jumps as well. Joubert strokes around basically on 2 feet for his entry whereas Chan gathers speed with hardly any stroking and did footwork into his 4T.
    Well, Ii am not so sure about this. The problem of the COP, I believe, is that the Socres are becoming farther and farther away from the impression of the ordinary spectators. Even maybe from the professional commentators. " Remember the Scott Hamilton was declaring Mirai as a winner before finding out Rachel won in reality in Nationals?
    You can explain why Chan got around 73 by looking at the protocol, but your instinct instantaneously tells you that is wrong.

    I am not a Chan hater, so I really appreciated his beautiful 4-3 combo that you talked about. I also do not have any questions about the fact that Chan's basic skating is one of the best in the world.

    But I feel plenty of injustice done to other skaters since this new system came around. Yuna's win in free last year over the near perfect Mao in world is also a good example.

    I know you love Patrick and want him to do well. But can you honestly feel that he deserves to be in final with 8 falls?

  12. #27
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    After they all declaring Nagasu the landslide winner over Flatt it turned out that she only barely placed second! There whole commentating was about takeoff revolve land and act like that was all there was too it!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    After they all declaring Nagasu the landslide winner over Flatt it turned out that she only barely placed second! There whole commentating was about takeoff revolve land and act like that was all there was too it!
    Quote Originally Posted by genki
    Well, Ii am not so sure about this. The problem of the COP, I believe, is that the Socres are becoming farther and farther away from the impression of the ordinary spectators. Even maybe from the professional commentators. " Remember the Scott Hamilton was declaring Mirai as a winner before finding out Rachel won in reality in Nationals?
    I had thought Mirai won decisively too. But I accepted the UR calls and the outcome, as did the competitors.

    That's why there's the Tech Panel who uses ultra slow video to determine the exact executions rather than by impressions. The Tech panel is the most objective part of the COP scoring because judges are liable to more subjectivity which is why there are strict guidelines and bullet points for them to follow.

    The COP system was devised and adopted so that when people like you and me argue or cry injustice, there is something to go by. These days we have the aid of technology and often the Tech calls can be varified with slo mo. Facts have to be accepted. People have very different impressions and everyone feels their impression/opinion is the most valid one. There would rarely be any consensus, especially for international competitions when nationalism, familiarity and "love" all play parts in the impressions formed. That's why there's a panel of 9 judges from different nations.

    I used Patrick's SP skated as a show program and as a competitive program to demonstrate impression vs COP scoring. Do you, genki, think the show program is better than the competitive one and would feel better if he skated that and won because it was clean? Do you think a system judging by impression is fair to skaters with actual better skills and doing more difficult elements? Will people ever agree with the judges' impression?

    I know you love Patrick and want him to do well. But can you honestly feel that he deserves to be in final with 8 falls?
    Yes I love Patrick (and a few others) and want him to do well. But that doesn't mean I think he should win no matter what. I don't care for Lysacek but I congratulated his Olympic win as deserving because he did the best that day under the judging system. I congratulated Verner's win over Patrick in COR too. I am able to accept outcomes demonstrated to be fair and by the rules. I'm satisfied that even if there's so much uproar about Patick's scores, they are justified. It's good to hear you don't hate him but I find there's so much over-reaction to his wins yet most of the anger is not rational. People just keep insisting he didn't earn his scores and come up with all kinds of ridiculous conclusions to "explain" the situations, all unfounded, unsupported and yet taken and insisted as truths. People never minded that he was underscored for his 2009 WC SP and they forget that he came up 6th in Skate Canada 2009, or that he came up pretty low for the two GPF he competed in. No, he doesn't always win. But when he does, people think he's gifted regardless of how the protocols show he earns his marks by doing more and higher level elements and doing them well.

    Because there was so much complaining from the quad squad, ISU adjusted the scoring the way they wanted. On top of incentives for quads, they eliminated a footwork sequence from the SP and assigned a measly 2 points to the 2nd footwork sequence in the LP. Can you say the officials just love Patrick Chan and want him to win no matter what? It seems to me they really try to make it difficult for him to win.

    So did Patrick and his team whine about these changes? No, instead he added quads to his programs and he still devotes over 30 leg-burning seconds flying and throwing himself around all over the rink doing that 2nd footwork sequence worth 2 points when a 1-second 3T, the easiest triple jump, is worth 4.1 points, 4.51 with bonus. That's how he earns his PCS, by working hard on the ice, and getting up fast after a fall and attacking the next element. Patrick and his team work with the system, adapting to it when changes are made. Team Chan and Skate Canada never lobied for scoring changes. The system is a level playing field, with all rules and point values open to all. It's part of the competition to understand it well and optimize one's program accordingly.

    Unless the system changes again, you may have to learn to look at all that a skater does do on the ice instead of just focusing on falls. And what has Patrick done this season? He has earned the highest scores for the most difficult elements of all competitors, thus making up for the falls, which were mostly near misses.

    For me, it's fascinating to watch a talented skater struggle challenging himself on the way up whereas watching one struggle on the way down is rather sad. Patrick has fallen in 2 minor competions, making personal milestones nonetheless. Let's wait and see how he does compared to the top skaters in the major competitions before condemning him and the system.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 12-03-2010 at 11:09 PM. Reason: Typo

  14. #29
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    Genki- I agree with you. The penalty for a fall should be much, much higher than that of a flutz or underrotation. Also, the highly subjective "skating skills" and other program components should not be able to cancel out multiple falls. There is nothing to stop a judge from giving a skater a 10-15 point advantage in the Program Components section, and practically ensuring his/her victory even if he/she skates terribly. That is what seems to be happening with Patrick Chan. How do you quantify the transitions, edge, speed, etc. objectively? You really can't, so there is an opportunity for cheating. Mark my words, there will be another judging scandal someday!

    I agree that Patrick is the fastest and smoothest skater, but that speed/smoothness shouldn't make up for several falls. All the complaints against him would stop if he just skated clean. He did show a good attitude in learning the quad, and he did do it beautifully at Skate Canada. It's up to him to shut his critics up. If he wins a major competition with several falls over a clean program, I think there will be protests or ugly scenes on the podium. But all this can be avoided by a good performance by Patrick.

    As for Mirai last year, I actually thought Rachael deserved to win. I think she did more jumps as well as rotated them better, IIRC. There was another (Grand Prix of '09) competition where I thought she won and she went down to 4th or 5th on edge calls. That was the more heartbreaking competition that I remember, where a great program was done in by the slo-mo.

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    Poodlepal, you mentioned many "should"s without rational justifications. I understand and respect that as intinctual feelings just as genki has emphasized. People feel as they do and obviously if figure skating is to be a popular sport/entertainment, such feelings should be addressed and be appealed to by the ISU.

    Problem is there are other considerations for the direction of figure skating, especially between the inherent conflict between its roles of Sport and of Entertainment. The rules were changed for this season because of the complaints that it discouraged quads, leading the Sport aspect of FS into regression and demise. (Men's skating should be manly!) Quads are the riskiest elements to accomplish in a competition. As well, a quad attempt almost always advesrsely affects subsequent jumps whether or not it is successfully completed. With heavy penalties, it was really not worthwhile to try it in a competition, except for the rare few who already had it routinely or thought they would always have it.

    Rules changes often have unintended consequences, or at least some undesirable early effects. With Chan taking the challenge and having some success with the new rules, many are now uproariously upset at the regression and demise of the Entertainment value of FS, which speaks to the fans at an instinctual level.

    How should the rules be changed again? All the proposals to heavily penalize falls seem to be reactionary without consideration of unintended consequences. Do we want skaters to avoid quads again? It seems what the old quad squad wanted was to just jump without much value placed on anything else, all that stuff in between jumps and into jumps. But damn Patrick still keeps his fancy transitions and even upping the quad's difficulty by not stalking it! IOW, he's upping his TES without sacrificing his PCS! Is he allowed to do that?!!!

    Many, like Poodelpal, also demand that no skating skills or transitions should overcome falls in a program. How should that be accomplished? Greatly reducing point value for non-jump elements and program components? I seriously doubt that would increase the Entertainment value of FS. Many such proposals would result in scenarios of skaters doing easier jumps and stroking around the rest of the program time because difficult jumps are not worth the risks and program components are not worth much. There go both the Sport and Entertainment values of FS!

    I believe Patrick is on a speedy learning curve and will have cleaner programs. So a little patience to observe the real effect of the revemped scoring before instant judgment and re-revemping is a rational thing to do IMO. But a rational thing to do is probably too much to ask of most fans, and impossible to ask of haters!

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