The Finalists and the substitutes - MEN

[Poodlepal]

I don't hate Patrick Chan! Really, I hope he does well. He's probably incredible when he's on! I'd like to see a clean performance from him. And you're right. You don't want to make the penalties for falling so severe that people are afraid to try anything. But whatever the penalty is for falling, I still think it should be more than what it is for flutzing and ur-ing. Perhaps the penalties should be less severe for falling on the hardest jump (quad for the guys and axel for the girls) than the "easy" jumps. Or perhaps they should add a bonus for trying the harder jumps, or just add points to the score as a bonus if they land all their jumps on one leg without a fall, big step out or hand down. They can still get that bonus even if they flutz or ur (although they would still deservedly lose execution points on those particular jumps.)

Excellent skating skills and presentation should still be able to overcome a fall (and should definitely make up for a step-out or a fall on a quad), but several falls? I'm still not convinced.

[herios]

I don't hate Patrick Chan! Really, I hope he does well. He's probably incredible when he's on! I'd like to see a clean performance from him. And you're right. You don't want to make the penalties for falling so severe that people are afraid to try anything. But whatever the penalty is for falling, I still think it should be more than what it is for flutzing and ur-ing. .

I keep reading about this, where is the idea that a fall is not more punished than an egde call? For an edge call, the skater usually gets -2 GOE, while for a fall is -3 and another point deduction for falling, so there is usually a 2 point more deduction for falling than flutzing for example.

[SkateFiguring]

How do you quantify the transitions, edge, speed, etc. objectively? You really can't, so there is an opportunity for cheating. Mark my words, there will be another judging scandal someday!

From this post of yours, I take it you are anti-cheating and are concerned about its possibilities. Well, the PCS are out in the open for all to see, including all the experts. We can disagree and argue about them but it's not cheating by anybody.

Falling and getting whatever the jump is worth by rules is not cheating.

Under-rotations and wrong edges are cheating. The Tech panel is there to call them because they are often not apparent. They even look very pretty and get cheered on. Only rotations done in air are counted for a jump. When a skater pre-rotates on ice before take off or completes the rotations on ice after landing but expects to be credited for full rotations, that's cheating, intentional or not. Wrong edge take off happens so much because it's much easier than the correct edge. It defies the definition of a jump and should not be credited as such a jump because that would be cheating.

With today's video technology and so many sharp eyed experts out there, do you not think skaters getting away with URs and wrong edges would cause judging scandals? The 6.0 era is over and figure skating has becoming ever more athletic, technical, varied and beautiful. Yes there were many unforgetable and wonderful performances under 6.0 but the best skaters then would still be the best skaters under any scoring system.

Cheating is actually much less tolerated under the current judging system.

Just to make it clear, I never take you or genki to be hateful, just sincere and honest about your feelings which are most natural. I get distressed by piled on hatefulness and nastiness on any undeserving individual, usually a public personality. I feel compelled to speak out for Patrick Chan because he's the target du jour and the rancor is disgusting, though it may not be worst on this board. Patrick is an extremely talented and hardworking youngster and undeserving of such amount of malevolence, and this is true of all elite competing skaters. I admire them all, with different levels of appreciation for their performances.

[skatinginbc]

I feel compelled to speak out for Patrick Chan because he's the target du jour and the rancor is disgusting, though it may not be worst on this board.

The best thing that came out of the anti-Patrick rancor is your joining in the forum and sharing your profound knowledge with us. Thank you for taking your time writing.

[herios]

This event will be interesting to say the least. I just hope we don't see injuries and last minute w/d, which would be underwhelming.
But always we have to look out in the post Olympic seasons, as the new dominant skaters emerge. An early hint is Taka Kozuka. He will be one of the dominant skaters in the next 4 years, and he is already is breaking through.
He might even defeat Takahashi and Oda here and then all that stupid talk he is # 3 in Japan will be history, as he will automatically punch his ticket to Tokyo Worlds.
That is what makes this event so exciting, we will have a competiotion within compatition, the japanese will have a mini-nationals on their own.
Of course tension will play a factor, and we will see who's nerves will held up better among the 3 of them.
If they all skate full potential or equally bad, I am expecting Dai to come out on top among the japanese guys for the obvious reason his PCS strength.
The other 3 guys, will insert themselves in this japanese hierarchy, and I am expecting Patrick to be in the running and dispatch at least the 3rd japanese guy of the podium.
If all 3 will be bad, I am expecting Patrick to win it, but I don't think he will skate clean, while the top japanese will be most likely cleaner than Patrick and he (whoever is) to win it.
Hopefully Tomas ill be cleaner like the whole season thusfar and make a statement for the upcoming Euros.
Amodio should skate stress free, he will not come into contention, but if the top guys falter, he could get a respectable finish for himself.

[colleen o'neill]

SkateFiguring...Really interesting posts. I , too, find the amount of rancour that surfaces any time Patrick's name is mentioned ( much less on GS than some forums ) simply stomach turning. I think it's reasonable to question his ( or any skater's ) marks , in a rational, dispassionate way ,in an effort to understand placements , and evaluate the system. But rationality often seems to fly out the window when he is involved..

It's the unintended consequences of rule changes that often come back to bite those who were the strongest lobbyists , but the athletes are usually the least deserving of any resulting scorn. I just hope it's all progressing toward a more perfect system.

[SkateFiguring]

The best thing that came out of the anti-Patrick rancor is your joining in the forum and sharing your profound knowledge with us. Thank you for taking your time writing.

There are quite a few very knowledgeable and principled posters here I appreciate so much for their sharing and sometimes their humility, courage, and humour. I thought I could play a supporting role when arguments get heated and irrationality overwhelms reasons. They probably don't need me but I sort of like joining a losing cause.

herios, I've been impressed with Kozuka from the first time I saw him a couple of years back. He's one of the few with the complete package including amazing skating skills. Somehow he hasn't broken through to the top yet, which might happen this season. I believe at the top level of any sport, it's all about the state of the mind. (Exhibit A: Tiger Woods. Exhibit B: Nobu Oda at last Worlds. And then we have the perpetual headcases, who are the saddest and most frustrating.) Maybe Kozuka is breaking through mentally now. My puzzlement about his not placing higher before was sort of explained by some people who have watched him live. According to them, he is opposite of Chan in that he "skates small" and comes across better on TV than live. This GPF should be a real test and a real opportunity for him.

I look at this as a 4 way race on slippery ice. Takahashi has not done so well this season even though he won both GPs. He is a rock star on ice and such a performer that he can always count on his PCS. Oda has got it all too, but just does not have a perfect non-cute program for him yet. Then there is Chan who would be unbeatable with the combination of high technical elements and skating skills, but he needs to skate clean or almost clean for this competition, and for himself, so it would not become too difficult to keep his mental strength amidist all the negativity.

I miss Abbott who really should be there.

I'm all excited for this event. May the best man win.

[Joesitz]

I keep reading about this, where is the idea that a fall is not more punished than an egde call? For an edge call, the skater usually gets -2 GOE, while for a fall is -3 and another point deduction for falling, so there is usually a 2 point more deduction for falling than flutzing for example.

Falls the program as well. There is no longer Flow from the Fall and the Time he/she get up and continues. To me that is a serious flaw in the PC scores especially in footwork, but Falls on other Tech is serious too. How do you know if a person rotated fully his jump or if he would have landed in an UR from a Fall?

BTW, when the scores come up on the screen, it also shows the minus number for Falls. The number is according to how many Falls occured. No?

[Joesitz]

SkateFiguring...Really interesting posts. I , too, find the amount of rancour that surfaces any time Patrick's name is mentioned ( much less on GS than some forums ) simply stomach turning. I think it's reasonable to question his ( or any skater's ) marks , in a rational, dispassionate way ,in an effort to understand placements , and evaluate the system. But rationality often seems to fly out the window when he is involved..

It's the unintended consequences of rule changes that often come back to bite those who were the strongest lobbyists , but the athletes are usually the least deserving of any resulting scorn. I just hope it's all progressing toward a more perfect system.

Unfortunately, skaters get branded in some of their Tech or Performance and even when they skate without those flaws, the branding remains. Think about Sara Hughes who the mere mention of her name was 'underrotation' whether or not she actually did.

I, for one, do not appreciate Falls. To me it shows poor skating ability. Other than the Falls, which I hope are temporary, Patrick is an excellent skater but the Falls have got to stop.

[SkateFiguring]

Falls the program as well. There is no longer Flow from the Fall and the Time he/she get up and continues. To me that is a serious flaw in the PC scores especially in footwork, but Falls on other Tech is serious too.

There are ugly falls and there are quick recoveries from falls and they have different impacts on the flow of the program. Some skaters just lose their mojo for the rest of the program after a fall. Chan generally gets up very fast and attacks the next element and keeps performing the program.

How do you know if a person rotated fully his jump or if he would have landed in an UR from a Fall?

This is observable and verifiable with video slo mo if necessary. As I mentioned before, Tech calls are the most objective part of scoring. They only call on verifiable facts while the judges call on quality. A fall on a fully rotated jump retains more value than one on an UR jump.

BTW, when the scores come up on the screen, it also shows the minus number for Falls. The number is according to how many Falls occured. No?

In most cases yes, but there are also other mandatory deductions, e.g. for time, costume, etc.

[Joesitz]

^^^^^
All Falls are ugly. It is very observable that they stop the Flow of the Program. No? The speed in which they recover should not negate a sound thrashing for Falling. The 2002, 06 and 10 skaters Oly champions did not Fall at their hora de verdad. That's what sport is all about and not about pampering some of its contestants.

I've sat through many LIVE competitions and the view is not clear all the time for URs. Only the Tech Asst has the slomo repeat if he didn't get a clear view. I would like the SloMo to be shown on the Jumbothon as it is in other Sports. The public has a right to know. I'm not against the tech panel decision, I just want to see an error clearly as they do. Also I am fully aware of human error be it inadvertently or deliberate.

[dorispulaski]

Joe, I too would like to see the exactly SLOMO the tech panel is reviewing on the Jumbotron, while they are reviewing it.

[Bluebonnet]

I, too, appreciate very much of posters like SkateFiguring and gkelly who have deep knowledge and great patience to analyse and explain everything. It helped me to appreciate more to the skaters like Patrick Chan, and helped me to see things beyond the obvious. Thank you!

Can't wait to see the skaters at GPF!

[Tonichelle]

would like the SloMo to be shown on the Jumbothon as it is in other Sports. The public has a right to know. I'm not against the tech panel decision, I just want to see an error clearly as they do. Also I am fully aware of human error be it inadvertently or deliberate.

In every National championship I've been to they HAVE reviewed several elements on the jumbotron. This is teh same footage that the broadcasting team is also reviewing for the TV viewers. This is the SAME WAY they do it in "other sports".

[Sylvia]

However, it is my understanding that the technical panel uses a different camera angle than what the TV cameras/Jumbotron in the arena show.