The Finalists and the substitutes - MEN | Page 2 | Golden Skate

The Finalists and the substitutes - MEN

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Verner did the Olympic gold medalist program at COR. He is doing what worked to win Olympic Gold. Kozuka got 89 in tech at Cup of France and Verner got 77ish when it wasn't clean. Takahashi and Chan have also got 80 plus. Clean I think Verner could get to over 80 with his quadless for progress, regress for success method which also won Olympic gold.

I was more thinking, Tomas has pretty competitive PCS, he got 78 for his FS in Russia and that's right about what the other men usually get, apart from Chan and Takahashi who just have 80+ for PCS every time. Realistically I don't think he will win, I just meant it would be cool if he somehow managed to, and after what happened last year, where both Lysacek and Weir were on the podium and neither did any quads, and Takahashi ended up all the way down in 5th, you never know what could happen. I tend to think he'll end up placing somewhere between 3rd and 5th, but I do think 3rd is not entirely out of the question, especially considering Chan, Takahashi, and Oda - the medal favorites, have been making lots of errors so far this season.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Verner did the Olympic gold medalist program at COR. He is doing what worked to win Olympic Gold. Kozuka got 89 in tech at Cup of France and Verner got 77ish when it wasn't clean. Takahashi and Chan have also got 80 plus. Clean I think Verner could get to over 80 with his quadless for progress, regress for success method which also won Olympic gold.

I think he said he's gonna try the quad at the GPF though :)
 

genki

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
Hi Skatefiguring:

Thank you for educating me about difficulty of 3T and 4T. It is very informative.

But I am not comparing 3t and 4t. I am comparing the points that skaters get after failed 4t attempt.

For example, in Cup of china, Brain J landed a beautiful 4t in FS but it was considered to be under rotated, so he got only 6.20 due to double deduction (70%+ -1 goe.)
Here's video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSTFqCYKlvs

And This is Chan's famous huge step out on 4t in Skate Canada, which gave him 7.3 points, since it was considered to be fully rotated and he got only GOE desuction of -3 potints.
Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et17q4D1FzU&feature=related

I really do not agree that almost perfect jumps by naked eyes get lower points than apparent failed attempt.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Hi Genki.

Chan also got an additional -1 for the fall besides the -3 GOE. So he lost 4 points on a fully rotated quad, making his 4T worth 6.3, vs 6.2 for Joubert's underrotated one. Not such great injustice, especially if we also compare the quality and degree of difficulty of their jumps as well. Joubert strokes around basically on 2 feet for his entry whereas Chan gathers speed with hardly any stroking and did footwork into his 4T.

I have a different set of comparison for you. Here's Chan's Take Five as a show program, clean as a whistle. In fact, I read many skating fans who watched this live and gushed over him online, saying how impressive he was live, with incredible skating and huge jumps, and he converted a few critics into fans. Well, that lovely performance would likely not put him on a podium, especially in a major competition like GPF or Worlds. He has been landing his quads consistently in practice but the only way to have it consistent in competitions is to practice them in competitions. Sure, he fell in SC, the GP debut, but if he hadn't kept at it in the next competition, we wouldn't have seen this gorgeous 4T/3T in Cup Of Russia. Now here he fell on a fully rotated 3A after step sequence, but this is a winning competitive program where he pushes the limit. It's not clean as the show program, but truly exciting, courageous and quite thrilling for the skating fans and it scored with the judges.

Yes, it's easy for even Patrick to skate clean when he downgrades the jumps, which is fine and entertaining in a show. But a competition is a different situation all together. The kid needs some time and competition experience with his extra difficult elements. I give him kudos for always pushing himself by adding to rather than replacing what he does on ice.
 

NMURA

Medalist
Joined
Jul 14, 2010
Verner did the Olympic gold medalist program at COR. He is doing what worked to win Olympic Gold. Kozuka got 89 in tech at Cup of France and Verner got 77ish when it wasn't clean. Takahashi and Chan have also got 80 plus. Clean I think Verner could get to over 80 with his quadless for progress, regress for success method which also won Olympic gold.

Thanks to the Olympic gold medalist program, new quad rules are introduced. I agree most of the judges and fans don't want to see quadless champions again at major competitions.
 

genki

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
Hi Skatefiguring

Not such great injustice, especially if we also compare the quality and degree of difficulty of their jumps as well. Joubert strokes around basically on 2 feet for his entry whereas Chan gathers speed with hardly any stroking and did footwork into his 4T.
Well, Ii am not so sure about this. The problem of the COP, I believe, is that the Socres are becoming farther and farther away from the impression of the ordinary spectators. Even maybe from the professional commentators. " Remember the Scott Hamilton was declaring Mirai as a winner before finding out Rachel won in reality in Nationals?
You can explain why Chan got around 73 by looking at the protocol, but your instinct instantaneously tells you that is wrong.

I am not a Chan hater, so I really appreciated his beautiful 4-3 combo that you talked about. I also do not have any questions about the fact that Chan's basic skating is one of the best in the world.

But I feel plenty of injustice done to other skaters since this new system came around. Yuna's win in free last year over the near perfect Mao in world is also a good example.

I know you love Patrick and want him to do well. But can you honestly feel that he deserves to be in final with 8 falls?
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
After they all declaring Nagasu the landslide winner over Flatt it turned out that she only barely placed second! There whole commentating was about takeoff revolve land and act like that was all there was too it!
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
After they all declaring Nagasu the landslide winner over Flatt it turned out that she only barely placed second! There whole commentating was about takeoff revolve land and act like that was all there was too it!

genki said:
Well, Ii am not so sure about this. The problem of the COP, I believe, is that the Socres are becoming farther and farther away from the impression of the ordinary spectators. Even maybe from the professional commentators. " Remember the Scott Hamilton was declaring Mirai as a winner before finding out Rachel won in reality in Nationals?

I had thought Mirai won decisively too. But I accepted the UR calls and the outcome, as did the competitors.

That's why there's the Tech Panel who uses ultra slow video to determine the exact executions rather than by impressions. The Tech panel is the most objective part of the COP scoring because judges are liable to more subjectivity which is why there are strict guidelines and bullet points for them to follow.

The COP system was devised and adopted so that when people like you and me argue or cry injustice, there is something to go by. These days we have the aid of technology and often the Tech calls can be varified with slo mo. Facts have to be accepted. People have very different impressions and everyone feels their impression/opinion is the most valid one. There would rarely be any consensus, especially for international competitions when nationalism, familiarity and "love" all play parts in the impressions formed. That's why there's a panel of 9 judges from different nations.

I used Patrick's SP skated as a show program and as a competitive program to demonstrate impression vs COP scoring. Do you, genki, think the show program is better than the competitive one and would feel better if he skated that and won because it was clean? Do you think a system judging by impression is fair to skaters with actual better skills and doing more difficult elements? Will people ever agree with the judges' impression?

I know you love Patrick and want him to do well. But can you honestly feel that he deserves to be in final with 8 falls?

Yes I love Patrick (and a few others) and want him to do well. But that doesn't mean I think he should win no matter what. I don't care for Lysacek but I congratulated his Olympic win as deserving because he did the best that day under the judging system. I congratulated Verner's win over Patrick in COR too. I am able to accept outcomes demonstrated to be fair and by the rules. I'm satisfied that even if there's so much uproar about Patick's scores, they are justified. It's good to hear you don't hate him but I find there's so much over-reaction to his wins yet most of the anger is not rational. People just keep insisting he didn't earn his scores and come up with all kinds of ridiculous conclusions to "explain" the situations, all unfounded, unsupported and yet taken and insisted as truths. People never minded that he was underscored for his 2009 WC SP and they forget that he came up 6th in Skate Canada 2009, or that he came up pretty low for the two GPF he competed in. No, he doesn't always win. But when he does, people think he's gifted regardless of how the protocols show he earns his marks by doing more and higher level elements and doing them well.

Because there was so much complaining from the quad squad, ISU adjusted the scoring the way they wanted. On top of incentives for quads, they eliminated a footwork sequence from the SP and assigned a measly 2 points to the 2nd footwork sequence in the LP. Can you say the officials just love Patrick Chan and want him to win no matter what? It seems to me they really try to make it difficult for him to win.

So did Patrick and his team whine about these changes? No, instead he added quads to his programs and he still devotes over 30 leg-burning seconds flying and throwing himself around all over the rink doing that 2nd footwork sequence worth 2 points when a 1-second 3T, the easiest triple jump, is worth 4.1 points, 4.51 with bonus. That's how he earns his PCS, by working hard on the ice, and getting up fast after a fall and attacking the next element. Patrick and his team work with the system, adapting to it when changes are made. Team Chan and Skate Canada never lobied for scoring changes. The system is a level playing field, with all rules and point values open to all. It's part of the competition to understand it well and optimize one's program accordingly.

Unless the system changes again, you may have to learn to look at all that a skater does do on the ice instead of just focusing on falls. And what has Patrick done this season? He has earned the highest scores for the most difficult elements of all competitors, thus making up for the falls, which were mostly near misses.

For me, it's fascinating to watch a talented skater struggle challenging himself on the way up whereas watching one struggle on the way down is rather sad. Patrick has fallen in 2 minor competions, making personal milestones nonetheless. Let's wait and see how he does compared to the top skaters in the major competitions before condemning him and the system.
 
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Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Genki- I agree with you. The penalty for a fall should be much, much higher than that of a flutz or underrotation. Also, the highly subjective "skating skills" and other program components should not be able to cancel out multiple falls. There is nothing to stop a judge from giving a skater a 10-15 point advantage in the Program Components section, and practically ensuring his/her victory even if he/she skates terribly. That is what seems to be happening with Patrick Chan. How do you quantify the transitions, edge, speed, etc. objectively? You really can't, so there is an opportunity for cheating. Mark my words, there will be another judging scandal someday!

I agree that Patrick is the fastest and smoothest skater, but that speed/smoothness shouldn't make up for several falls. All the complaints against him would stop if he just skated clean. He did show a good attitude in learning the quad, and he did do it beautifully at Skate Canada. It's up to him to shut his critics up. If he wins a major competition with several falls over a clean program, I think there will be protests or ugly scenes on the podium. But all this can be avoided by a good performance by Patrick.

As for Mirai last year, I actually thought Rachael deserved to win. I think she did more jumps as well as rotated them better, IIRC. There was another (Grand Prix of '09) competition where I thought she won and she went down to 4th or 5th on edge calls. That was the more heartbreaking competition that I remember, where a great program was done in by the slo-mo.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Poodlepal, you mentioned many "should"s without rational justifications. I understand and respect that as intinctual feelings just as genki has emphasized. People feel as they do and obviously if figure skating is to be a popular sport/entertainment, such feelings should be addressed and be appealed to by the ISU.

Problem is there are other considerations for the direction of figure skating, especially between the inherent conflict between its roles of Sport and of Entertainment. The rules were changed for this season because of the complaints that it discouraged quads, leading the Sport aspect of FS into regression and demise. (Men's skating should be manly!) Quads are the riskiest elements to accomplish in a competition. As well, a quad attempt almost always advesrsely affects subsequent jumps whether or not it is successfully completed. With heavy penalties, it was really not worthwhile to try it in a competition, except for the rare few who already had it routinely or thought they would always have it.

Rules changes often have unintended consequences, or at least some undesirable early effects. With Chan taking the challenge and having some success with the new rules, many are now uproariously upset at the regression and demise of the Entertainment value of FS, which speaks to the fans at an instinctual level.

How should the rules be changed again? All the proposals to heavily penalize falls seem to be reactionary without consideration of unintended consequences. Do we want skaters to avoid quads again? It seems what the old quad squad wanted was to just jump without much value placed on anything else, all that stuff in between jumps and into jumps. But damn Patrick still keeps his fancy transitions and even upping the quad's difficulty by not stalking it! IOW, he's upping his TES without sacrificing his PCS! Is he allowed to do that?!!!

Many, like Poodelpal, also demand that no skating skills or transitions should overcome falls in a program. How should that be accomplished? Greatly reducing point value for non-jump elements and program components? I seriously doubt that would increase the Entertainment value of FS. Many such proposals would result in scenarios of skaters doing easier jumps and stroking around the rest of the program time because difficult jumps are not worth the risks and program components are not worth much. There go both the Sport and Entertainment values of FS!

I believe Patrick is on a speedy learning curve and will have cleaner programs. So a little patience to observe the real effect of the revemped scoring before instant judgment and re-revemping is a rational thing to do IMO. But a rational thing to do is probably too much to ask of most fans, and impossible to ask of haters!
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I don't hate Patrick Chan! Really, I hope he does well. He's probably incredible when he's on! I'd like to see a clean performance from him. And you're right. You don't want to make the penalties for falling so severe that people are afraid to try anything. But whatever the penalty is for falling, I still think it should be more than what it is for flutzing and ur-ing. Perhaps the penalties should be less severe for falling on the hardest jump (quad for the guys and axel for the girls) than the "easy" jumps. Or perhaps they should add a bonus for trying the harder jumps, or just add points to the score as a bonus if they land all their jumps on one leg without a fall, big step out or hand down. They can still get that bonus even if they flutz or ur (although they would still deservedly lose execution points on those particular jumps.)

Excellent skating skills and presentation should still be able to overcome a fall (and should definitely make up for a step-out or a fall on a quad), but several falls? I'm still not convinced.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
I don't hate Patrick Chan! Really, I hope he does well. He's probably incredible when he's on! I'd like to see a clean performance from him. And you're right. You don't want to make the penalties for falling so severe that people are afraid to try anything. But whatever the penalty is for falling, I still think it should be more than what it is for flutzing and ur-ing. .

I keep reading about this, where is the idea that a fall is not more punished than an egde call? For an edge call, the skater usually gets -2 GOE, while for a fall is -3 and another point deduction for falling, so there is usually a 2 point more deduction for falling than flutzing for example.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
How do you quantify the transitions, edge, speed, etc. objectively? You really can't, so there is an opportunity for cheating. Mark my words, there will be another judging scandal someday!

From this post of yours, I take it you are anti-cheating and are concerned about its possibilities. Well, the PCS are out in the open for all to see, including all the experts. We can disagree and argue about them but it's not cheating by anybody.

Falling and getting whatever the jump is worth by rules is not cheating.

Under-rotations and wrong edges are cheating. The Tech panel is there to call them because they are often not apparent. They even look very pretty and get cheered on. Only rotations done in air are counted for a jump. When a skater pre-rotates on ice before take off or completes the rotations on ice after landing but expects to be credited for full rotations, that's cheating, intentional or not. Wrong edge take off happens so much because it's much easier than the correct edge. It defies the definition of a jump and should not be credited as such a jump because that would be cheating.

With today's video technology and so many sharp eyed experts out there, do you not think skaters getting away with URs and wrong edges would cause judging scandals? The 6.0 era is over and figure skating has becoming ever more athletic, technical, varied and beautiful. Yes there were many unforgetable and wonderful performances under 6.0 but the best skaters then would still be the best skaters under any scoring system.

Cheating is actually much less tolerated under the current judging system.

Just to make it clear, I never take you or genki to be hateful, just sincere and honest about your feelings which are most natural. I get distressed by piled on hatefulness and nastiness on any undeserving individual, usually a public personality. I feel compelled to speak out for Patrick Chan because he's the target du jour and the rancor is disgusting, though it may not be worst on this board. Patrick is an extremely talented and hardworking youngster and undeserving of such amount of malevolence, and this is true of all elite competing skaters. I admire them all, with different levels of appreciation for their performances.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I feel compelled to speak out for Patrick Chan because he's the target du jour and the rancor is disgusting, though it may not be worst on this board.

The best thing that came out of the anti-Patrick rancor is your joining in the forum and sharing your profound knowledge with us. Thank you for taking your time writing.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
This event will be interesting to say the least. I just hope we don't see injuries and last minute w/d, which would be underwhelming.
But always we have to look out in the post Olympic seasons, as the new dominant skaters emerge. An early hint is Taka Kozuka. He will be one of the dominant skaters in the next 4 years, and he is already is breaking through.
He might even defeat Takahashi and Oda here and then all that stupid talk he is # 3 in Japan will be history, as he will automatically punch his ticket to Tokyo Worlds.
That is what makes this event so exciting, we will have a competiotion within compatition, the japanese will have a mini-nationals on their own.
Of course tension will play a factor, and we will see who's nerves will held up better among the 3 of them.
If they all skate full potential or equally bad, I am expecting Dai to come out on top among the japanese guys for the obvious reason his PCS strength.
The other 3 guys, will insert themselves in this japanese hierarchy, and I am expecting Patrick to be in the running and dispatch at least the 3rd japanese guy of the podium.
If all 3 will be bad, I am expecting Patrick to win it, but I don't think he will skate clean, while the top japanese will be most likely cleaner than Patrick and he (whoever is) to win it.
Hopefully Tomas ill be cleaner like the whole season thusfar and make a statement for the upcoming Euros.
Amodio should skate stress free, he will not come into contention, but if the top guys falter, he could get a respectable finish for himself.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:) SkateFiguring...Really interesting posts. I , too, find the amount of rancour that surfaces any time Patrick's name is mentioned ( much less on GS than some forums ) simply stomach turning. I think it's reasonable to question his ( or any skater's ) marks , in a rational, dispassionate way ,in an effort to understand placements , and evaluate the system. But rationality often seems to fly out the window when he is involved..

It's the unintended consequences of rule changes that often come back to bite those who were the strongest lobbyists , but the athletes are usually the least deserving of any resulting scorn. I just hope it's all progressing toward a more perfect system.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
The best thing that came out of the anti-Patrick rancor is your joining in the forum and sharing your profound knowledge with us. Thank you for taking your time writing.

:eek::

There are quite a few very knowledgeable and principled posters here I appreciate so much for their sharing and sometimes their humility, courage, and humour. I thought I could play a supporting role when arguments get heated and irrationality overwhelms reasons. They probably don't need me but I sort of like joining a losing cause. :)

herios, I've been impressed with Kozuka from the first time I saw him a couple of years back. He's one of the few with the complete package including amazing skating skills. Somehow he hasn't broken through to the top yet, which might happen this season. I believe at the top level of any sport, it's all about the state of the mind. (Exhibit A: Tiger Woods. Exhibit B: Nobu Oda at last Worlds. And then we have the perpetual headcases, who are the saddest and most frustrating.) Maybe Kozuka is breaking through mentally now. My puzzlement about his not placing higher before was sort of explained by some people who have watched him live. According to them, he is opposite of Chan in that he "skates small" and comes across better on TV than live. This GPF should be a real test and a real opportunity for him.

I look at this as a 4 way race on slippery ice. Takahashi has not done so well this season even though he won both GPs. He is a rock star on ice and such a performer that he can always count on his PCS. Oda has got it all too, but just does not have a perfect non-cute program for him yet. Then there is Chan who would be unbeatable with the combination of high technical elements and skating skills, but he needs to skate clean or almost clean for this competition, and for himself, so it would not become too difficult to keep his mental strength amidist all the negativity.

I miss Abbott who really should be there.

I'm all excited for this event. May the best man win.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I keep reading about this, where is the idea that a fall is not more punished than an egde call? For an edge call, the skater usually gets -2 GOE, while for a fall is -3 and another point deduction for falling, so there is usually a 2 point more deduction for falling than flutzing for example.
Falls the program as well. There is no longer Flow from the Fall and the Time he/she get up and continues. To me that is a serious flaw in the PC scores especially in footwork, but Falls on other Tech is serious too. How do you know if a person rotated fully his jump or if he would have landed in an UR from a Fall?

BTW, when the scores come up on the screen, it also shows the minus number for Falls. The number is according to how many Falls occured. No?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
:) SkateFiguring...Really interesting posts. I , too, find the amount of rancour that surfaces any time Patrick's name is mentioned ( much less on GS than some forums ) simply stomach turning. I think it's reasonable to question his ( or any skater's ) marks , in a rational, dispassionate way ,in an effort to understand placements , and evaluate the system. But rationality often seems to fly out the window when he is involved..

It's the unintended consequences of rule changes that often come back to bite those who were the strongest lobbyists , but the athletes are usually the least deserving of any resulting scorn. I just hope it's all progressing toward a more perfect system.
Unfortunately, skaters get branded in some of their Tech or Performance and even when they skate without those flaws, the branding remains. Think about Sara Hughes who the mere mention of her name was 'underrotation' whether or not she actually did.

I, for one, do not appreciate Falls. To me it shows poor skating ability. Other than the Falls, which I hope are temporary, Patrick is an excellent skater but the Falls have got to stop.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Falls the program as well. There is no longer Flow from the Fall and the Time he/she get up and continues. To me that is a serious flaw in the PC scores especially in footwork, but Falls on other Tech is serious too.

There are ugly falls and there are quick recoveries from falls and they have different impacts on the flow of the program. Some skaters just lose their mojo for the rest of the program after a fall. Chan generally gets up very fast and attacks the next element and keeps performing the program.

How do you know if a person rotated fully his jump or if he would have landed in an UR from a Fall?

This is observable and verifiable with video slo mo if necessary. As I mentioned before, Tech calls are the most objective part of scoring. They only call on verifiable facts while the judges call on quality. A fall on a fully rotated jump retains more value than one on an UR jump.

BTW, when the scores come up on the screen, it also shows the minus number for Falls. The number is according to how many Falls occured. No?

In most cases yes, but there are also other mandatory deductions, e.g. for time, costume, etc.
 
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