Is Russian Men's Figure Skating dead?

evangeline · Dec 1, 2010

volk said:
I just watched a few clips of him on youtube. I can't say he's has good overall package. He has good jumps and spins, but everything else needs work.

I am looking for the next Yagudin, but I don't thing Russia will ever get one. Maybe I'm asking for too much.

I too would love to see the next Yagudin, but we ought to remember that even Yagudin did not emerge fully-formed, Pallas Athena-style. Give the young Russian men a chance--Yagudin had the artistry of a refrigerator on ice when he was 15, and look how well he eventually turned out!

Anyways, I really saw some potential in Borodulin, and am sad about to hear about his boot problems. Hopefully he will return all the stronger.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 1, 2010

I would like to see another strong Russian stylist, not like Yagudin, but like himself. Is it possible to get away from Warhorse Music?

ImaginaryPogue · Dec 1, 2010

Nadine said:
I've always had a great deal of respect for the Russian culture, history, people, et al, as I consider them the "real thing" when it comes to the arts, ballet, gymnastics, figure skating, royalty, etc. Everybody else is a pretender, they copy from them, but imho the Russians are the "real thing". And that includes Evgeni Plushenko.

http://news.sportbox.ru/Vidy_sporta...o_Evgeniy-Plyuschenko-pristupil-k-trenirovkam

That's a stunningly general statement. Also I'm trying reconcile the monarchical history of Russia with the idea that they were the "real thing" when it comes to royalty, and how other nations copied from them.

Admittedly, much of Russian Culture (outside of literature, music and movies, so take that what you will) doesn't impact me viscerally.

Nadine · Dec 1, 2010

Ah, it looks like I touched a nerve with *my opinion*.

Be that as it may, it is the way *I* feel. But in retrospect, I would have to say that the Russians actually copied ballet from France, whom were the originators. So they were not the real thing when it came to ballet, yet they revolutionized ballet to such an extent that it almost seems to start with them. And as far as the monarchy/royalty goes, again I feel France, not Russia, is the real thing, though I admired the opulence of the Romanovs and the architecture of their royal palaces. Lol, actually I have a love affair with both France & Russia when it comes to this, the Louvre is a work of pure art!

Anyhow, back on topic, once again I state N-O, Russian Men's Figure Skating is NOT dead ~ Long Live The King!!!!!! :bow:

Bluebonnet · Dec 1, 2010

Nadine said:
Ah, it looks like I touched a nerve with *my opinion*. Be that as it may, it is the way *I* feel. But in retrospect, I would have to say that the Russians actually copied ballet from France, whom were the originators. So they were not the real thing when it came to ballet, yet they revolutionized ballet to such an extent that it almost seems to start with them. And as far as the monarchy/royalty goes, again I feel France, not Russia, is the real thing, though I admired the opulence of the Romanovs and the architecture of their royal palaces. Lol, actually I have a love affair with both France & Russia when it comes to this, the Louvre is a work of pure art!

Anyhow, back on topic, once again I state N-O, Russian Men's Figure Skating is NOT dead ~ Long Live The King!!!!!!

Interesting comments and fascinating history. Where do you put the British monarchy in the world map? I thought the western Europe had considered Russia a barbarous place at the time.

ImaginaryPogue · Dec 1, 2010

Nadine said:
Ah, it looks like I touched a nerve with *my opinion*. Be that as it may, it is the way *I* feel. But in retrospect, I would have to say that the Russians actually copied ballet from France, whom were the originators. So they were not the real thing when it came to ballet, yet they revolutionized ballet to such an extent that it almost seems to start with them. And as far as the monarchy/royalty goes, again I feel France, not Russia, is the real thing, though I admired the opulence of the Romanovs and the architecture of their royal palaces. Lol, actually I have a love affair with both France & Russia when it comes to this, the Louvre is a work of pure art!

Anyhow, back on topic, once again I state N-O, Russian Men's Figure Skating is NOT dead ~ Long Live The King!!!!!!

Fair enough. Though I will say opinions strike nerves far more profoundly than facts do. Also your explanation helps a lot more.

evangeline · Dec 1, 2010

Nadine said:
I've always had a great deal of respect for the Russian culture, history, people, et al, as I consider them the "real thing" when it comes to the arts, ballet, gymnastics, figure skating, royalty, etc. Everybody else is a pretender, they copy from them, but imho the Russians are the "real thing". And that includes Evgeni Plushenko.
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As someone who studies Russian history, I too find your statement quite bizarre. Russian culture did not develop ex nihilo--like all other cultures they borrow things from everyone else (e.g. the title/idea of the Tsar in Russian royalty? Borrowed from the Bulgarians, who borrowed it from the Romans. Plus Russian elite culture became quite influenced by general European--particularly French--culture after Peter the Great's pro-Western reforms anyways).

And I really question the idea that something is less "real" simply because it has been tweaked/it is not the original. Firstly, the ex-philosophy student in me is wincing and secondly, consider this: the founder of modern figure skating was arguably Jackson Haines (an American).

janetfan · Dec 1, 2010

evangeline said:
As someone who studies Russian history, I too find your statement quite bizarre. Russian culture did not develop ex nihilo--like all other cultures they borrow things from everyone else (e.g. the title/idea of the Tsar in Russian royalty? Borrowed from the Bulgarians, who borrowed it from the Romans. Plus Russian elite culture became quite influenced by general European--particularly French--culture after Peter the Great's pro-Western reforms anyways).

And I really question the idea that something is less "real" simply because it has been tweaked/it is not the original. Firstly, the ex-philosophy student in me is wincing and secondly, consider this: the founder of modern figure skating was arguably Jackson Haines (an American).

And the ballet is not an original Russian dance form........ :eek:

Certainly Russian dancers have been among the greatest ballet dancers - but it originated in Italy and was developed further by the French in Paris. I will leave it up to some of the trained Dancers at GS to expound on this if they feel an urge.

I think Plushy's own words sum it up best: "I want to be like Dick Button."

Last time I checked Uncle Dick is an American. :biggrin:

As to writing I admit to be in complete awe of Dostoyevsky. And of course there are many other great Russian writers - just as there are great writers from many different cultures.

I would like to go to Sochi - but admit there are other places in the world of more interest to me.
At the moment I wonder about Nagoya - and think there must be something in the water there

Nadine · Dec 1, 2010

Interesting perspectives you each bring forth, but I still stand by my statements, it is my opinion after all, and I refuse to budge.

Regards your question Bluebonnet, I don't hold the British monarchy very high, especially nowadays. In fact if only males were allowed to ascend to the throne, Queen Victoria would have never been, rather the Hanover line would have prevailed. Lol, but I'm not sure if that would be a good thing considering how Ernst August has conducted himself throughout his life thus far. The only monarchy I respect nowadays is the Belgium Royal Family.

But I digress, and really should get back on topic. I agree with those that stated something to the effect that Russian mens' figure skating will rise once again, just as I've heard they are on an upward movement when it comes to ice dance & pairs. So shall the mens' return...

seniorita · Dec 1, 2010

janetfan said:
At the moment I wonder about Nagoya - and think there must be something in the water there

yeap..laticauda colubrinas :biggrin:

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 1, 2010

Nadine said:
Ah, it looks like I touched a nerve with *my opinion*. Be that as it may, it is the way *I* feel. But in retrospect, I would have to say that the Russians actually copied ballet from France, whom were the originators. So they were not the real thing when it came to ballet, yet they revolutionized ballet to such an extent that it almost seems to start with them. And as far as the monarchy/royalty goes, again I feel France, not Russia, is the real thing, though I admired the opulence of the Romanovs and the architecture of their royal palaces. Lol, actually I have a love affair with both France & Russia when it comes to this, the Louvre is a work of pure art!

Anyhow, back on topic, once again I state N-O, Russian Men's Figure Skating is NOT dead ~ Long Live The King!!!!!!

The History of Ballet should read that, it started in Italy with the all male court dancers. Diplomats from France and Denmark were amazed that men could point their toes and turn out at the knees. Both countries had the Italian dancers come to their countries.
The French ballet, Giselle wowed the Russian Royalty and ballet was born in Russia. The Russian royalty had hired an Italian named Cherqueti who was given the job of training Russian ballet dancers. Later, came Petipa from France who gave the Russian's Don Quixote, and eventually the Children's Ballets of Nutcracker, Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake. Check all this out on Wikipedia. I'm just remembering from years gone by.

Nadine · Dec 1, 2010

Wikipedia, please, don't believe everything you read (btw I'm not referring to *you* in general, as I know how upset you get when you think you are being attacked; I speak from past experience with you).

It started in France, and I could go & on & on about this particular subject, likewise the monarchy/royalty, and I have done so, just not here, as I am a member of several forums on the internet because my interests are varied.

For GS in particular, I come here for skating only, and therefore only post in the skating relating threads/forums on here. But, lol, if you should find me in other forums not related to skating I'd gladly have an intense discussion with whomever as it relates to my views on ballet, or the monarchy, politics, etc.

Once again, back on topic, I'm sure there are quite a few f.s. fans on the net that would like to see Russian mens' figure skating disappear all together (likewise their ice dance & pairs), but that's not going to happen. I welcome Evgeni Plushenko back with open arms, and cannot wait for him to compete next season. My only regret is it's not soon enough.

Olympia · Dec 2, 2010

Joesitz said:
The History of Ballet should read that, it started in Italy with the all male court dancers. Diplomats from France and Denmark were amazed that men could point their toes and turn out at the knees. Both countries had the Italian dancers come to their countries.
The French ballet, Giselle wowed the Russian Royalty and ballet was born in Russia. The Russian royalty had hired an Italian named Cherqueti who was given the job of training Russian ballet dancers. Later, came Petipa from France who gave the Russian's Don Quixote, and eventually the Children's Ballets of Nutcracker, Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake. Check all this out on Wikipedia. I'm just remembering from years gone by.

Certainly Russia has added a lot to ballet. I remember back in the days of the Soviet Union, when they owned pairs and ice dance, and even though we Americans wanted more respect from international judges, I found I couldn't gripe too much about the USSR winning everything. They put in the work and came up with so many of the advances, both technical and artistic, that make skating what it is today. One just had to respect them. I think I remembered hearing that many of their skaters studied ballet pretty intensively, which certainly wasn't the case in the States at that time (at least not the guys or male pair partners). I think Russian men don't have that ambivalence toward being artistically expressive. They think it's a guy thing. That's how you end up with a Yagudin or an Artur Dmitriev. I think a lot of that mindset comes from their ballet tradition, and probably a good amount comes from their vital folk dance tradition.

While I could take or leave some of their pairs--I think of them as the "businesslike" pairs--their greatest skaters were pretty much the class of the field. What would skating even be without the Protopopovs or G & G? And then the men's singles skaters, that admirable line from Petrenko (thinking of him as Soviet-trained, though I know he's Ukranian, not Russian) to Plushy...that kind of tradition doesn't just evaporate. As the Terminator would say, they'll be back.

volk · Dec 27, 2010

After watching Russian Nationals the only thing I can say is that the future doesn't look very bright.

oleada · Dec 27, 2010

volk said:
After watching Russian Nationals the only thing I can say is that the future doesn't look very bright.

The other three disciplines are ripe with potential. The men...not so much.

Ellen · Dec 28, 2010

Some off-topic comment. The results of the poll "Sportsman of the year" (no matter male or female) in Russia for this past year are as follows:
1- Andrey Arshavin (football player who plays for a British football club)
2 - Evgeny Plyushenko
3 - Elena Isinbaeva (many times World record holder in pole vaulting).

I was surprised! Figure skating is not the most popular sports among men and not that many people at all are interested in it compared to ice hockey, (not to mention football) for example, but still they chose Plushenko!
So he really did a great job when he returned to the sport after 3 years break and almost won another Olympic Gold.

seniorita · Dec 28, 2010

i like the Bush boy alot, and he is young and fresh, although everybody told him he looks like Plushenko but his skate reminds me of Yagudin.

volk · Dec 28, 2010

Even in the field as wide open as the one in Saransk, few could have predicted a medal for Bush. The student of Alexei Urmanov skated a very competent program, landing a triple Axel and six more triple jumps - only popping a final flip into a double.

"I am very upset about the mistake," he said afterwards. "Even though the flip is put really late in the program, I have always landed it in the past. I would not have changed the outcome anyway, but still it's a pity."

The Junior Grand Prix Final participant earned 135.93 (64.65/71.28) points, and with a total score of 204.98, was able to capture the bronze.

"It was a decent job," he said at the press conference. "At least Urmanov was happy, which is good. He is a strict taskmaster, but he is a great professional and I always try to do what he tells me to do. Often it is not easy, but this is something you have to live with."

The skater is often compared to Evgeni Plushenko both in his appearance and in his skating style.

"Yes, thank you, I am aware of it," he replied when asked about it at the press conference. "In fact for a while I considered making a sign and sticking it on my back 'Yes, I look like Plushenko. No, I am not his brother'," he joked."Pretty much everyone who meets me tells me about it. Generally I pretend to be surprised."

The 17-yeard old, however, denies any attempts to copy a decorated compatriot.

"No, I do not re-watch his programs," he said. "If anything, I watch Alexei Yagudin. He is the one I was always looking up to. Together with my coach, we have tried to work on it [not looking like Plushenko]. We changed the haircut. It did not work. Now all that is left is a plastic surgery."

I like this guy. I want him to go to Euros, instead of Gachinsky.

gmyers · Dec 28, 2010

Well the winner this year was 27 and the oldest first time winner ever I believe but the silver and bronze went to 17 years and younger. Gachinski even when hurt did a lot of good jumps. Bush was not as good but he has lots of room to grow. Still there is no man as good as the younger girls and that's just reality but not like forever.

gmyers · Dec 28, 2010

volk said:
I like this guy. I want him to go to Euros, instead of Gachinsky.

With Gachinski's knee thing that is totally possible!

Is Russian Men's Figure Skating dead?

evangeline

Joesitz (RIP)

ImaginaryPogue

Nadine

Bluebonnet

ImaginaryPogue

evangeline

janetfan

Match Penalty

Nadine

seniorita

Joesitz (RIP)

Nadine

Olympia

volk

oleada

Ellen

seniorita

volk

gmyers

gmyers

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