How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

One pro-National point is that it's held near the end of the season and is the last competition before Worlds so it reflects the skaters' readiness in terms of their skill and program performance levels, regardless of struggles in their progress through the season. It's such readiness at the end of the season that counts, for both Nationals and Worlds.

The US selection as described sounds good, since it usually has the luxury of sending multiple skaters.

wallylutz said:

Kimmie being a former World Champion got a bye over a skater who was relatively unproven

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Oy, it just sets my teeth on edge to see the word "bye" so misused.

A bye is allowing a competitor in a tournament to advance to the next round of the same tournament without competing in the earlier round.

The only context in which it is accurate to use the word "bye" in relation to figure skating is when skaters are allowed to skip earlier rounds in the same qualifying structure (regionals or sectionals in the US) and advance directly to the next level of qualifying competition (sectionals or nationals).

Also, if/when ISU championships include qualifying rounds and some skaters are exempted from the qualifying rounds and prequalified directly to the finals, that would be another context in which the word "bye" would be accurate, although I've never heard it used in that context.

Skating fans often misuse the word to refer to federations naming skaters to international championships without competing at their nationals. This is not a "bye" according to the sports definition of the word, because nationals are not an earlier round of the same qualifying system as the international championships. The organization that runs the international championships (the ISU) does not run the national championships and does not require or guarantee that national champions advance to Euros or 4Cs or Worlds or Olympics. Skating officials do not use the word in this context.

Now we have an even further distortion of the meaning of the word. Meissner certainly was not allowed to skip competing at Nationals to be named to the 2008 world team. She competed. She had a mediocre placement. She was named to the team anyway. That's not a bye.

Japanese selection model is more controversial because they grant one spot to the highest placed skater in the GPF, who in theory, could be the only Japanese skater to make it but ended up last there. Miki Ando who got her Olympic spot that way last year, finished 4th at her Nationals, behind Suzuki and Nakano. Nakano was not selected for the Olympic Games because JSF has already promised a spot to Ando and Suzuki finished some 1 point ahead of Nakano at Japanese Nationals. It would be really messy if Nakano ended up higher than Suzuki. To be fair, they gave Nakano the chance to go to Worlds in Italy but she turned it down, so they didn't exactly mistreat their Bronze medalist.

My view is that nationals should be used as the primary selection tool where considerations for international results should only be used in exceptional cases.

gkelly said:

Oy, it just sets my teeth on edge to see the word "bye" so misused.

[...]

That's not a bye.

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O.K., O.K., yes Ma'am, I used the wrong word, don't shoot me.

Let me rephrase, Kimmie was given special considerations as a former U.S. and World Champion, based on existing precedents.

Speaking as a fan I love Natls. I love the electric atmosphere of Natls.
If I knew that the highest USA GPF skaters had a "bye" to Worlds and that results from the previous years Worlds or 4CC,,,gasp..., would also determine the USA Natl team I doubt if I would make it a point to have family, friends, pizza, popcorn, cokes, beer kegs and other beverages on hand for a Natls party.

No way would I have such interest in what would feel like just another GP type "skating pageant."

Somebody earlier said, "what if Mirai only comes in third." Nobody is a bigger Mirai fan than me - but if she finishes third at Natls I hope she will work harder next season and do better. I also hope she enjoys watching Worlds on the internet the same as me and other fans.

I like competitive events. That is why the GP feels a little snozzy to me - and I see it as nothing more than a very entertaining exhibition season. I really don't care how well Mirai skates in China or France. I do care greatly how she skates at Natls and Worlds.

I think the US is entitled to enter 2 Lady skaters in the Worlds. If that is true, the two best as I see it are Mirai and Rachael, and very different skaters they are! Czisny is a nice skater if you overlook the inconsistency in the jumps (not unlike Falls of Chan); Ashley could win the Nats and then struggle in the Worlds. Who else is there?

Thanks to Evan, we have 3 Men to send to the Worlds. Here the system of reviewing the men on past performances as wll as Nats is important. Ithink the Committee would have its work cut out to select 3.

In Pairs I would accept the results of the Nats.

In Ice Dance, we know the top Teams and we should look closely at what they have accomplished this season.

Thanks to Jeremy and Adam, actually. Evan's Olympic victory had nothing to do with the number of places at the 2011 worlds.

Joesitz said:

OK but let's have a series of comps to reach that decision and forget about secret committee meetings.

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I would be OK with choosing the world team in a way that includes resutls in more than one competition (although in my heart I am with Janetfan on this one.)

But it's tricky. For one thing, I don't think we should use last year's results at all. Last year's Super Bowl winner does not get a free pass to this year's playoffs. So it would basically come down to the Grand Prix, then U.S. Nationals, then Four Continents.

But there are many difficulties. You have to place at the top in U.S. Nationals even to make the Four Continent team. If Abbott, Rippon and Mroz finished 1-2-3 at U.S. Nationals, then went to Four Continents and finished 3rd, 8th and 11th, in some order, what would that prove? They still would be the three that we sent to worlds.

As for the Grand Prix events, they feature uneven competitive fields, and it is not always clear that the skaters who make the finals are better than some who don't.

As I said above, we know who the best skaters are for the Team before the Selection Committee meets.

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All the more reason why we don't need a committee.

But...I hgave to say that if you already know who our top guns are this year, I take off my hat to you. :yes:.

In ladies we have two spots. We want the strongest possible team. Who should we send? Alissa and Rachael made the Grand Prix Final. But are they better than Mirai and Ashley? If Agnes Zawadski skates lights out at U.S. Nationals and gets second, should we send her to worlds?

What about Armin Mahboozadeh. None of the U.S. men made the Grand Prix Final, but the highest finishers were Abbot, Mroz and Rippon. Personally, if Armin medaled at U.S. nationals I would have no hesitation in putting him on the world team. And if there is a difference of opinion about this, then it's back to the "committee" to do our thinking for us.

Who are our strongest pairs teams? Yankowska&Coughlin did best in the Grand Prix, edging out Evora&Ladwig, with Denney&Barett and Castelli&Snapir in hot pursuit. Which two deserve to go to worlds?

I really cannot think of any fairer way to decide than to say, if you want to go to worlds, come to U.S. Nationals and skate for it.

Joesitz said:

I think the US is entitled to enter 2 Lady skaters in the Worlds. If that is true, the two best as I see it are Mirai and Rachael, and very different skaters they are! Czisny is a nice skater if you overlook the inconsistency in the jumps (not unlike Falls of Chan); Ashley could win the Nats and then struggle in the Worlds. Who else is there?

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US has 2 spots in ladies this year, not if. Why should Mirai or Rachael be given special considerations? An argument can be made that Mirai's consistent implosions can't be trusted and her track record of getting dinged by tech panels, not just in 1 or 2 competitions, but one after another, domesticaly or internationaly, is troublesome. Rachael seems to run out o tricks, no matter how she skates, she seems to run into a ceiling. Ladies will be determined by how well they skate at the U.S. Nationals. Neither Alissa or Rachael should expect any special considerations. Conversely, Mirai will not be penalized in anyway either because she didn't qualify for GPF.

Joesitz said:

I think the US is entitled to enter 2 Lady skaters in the Worlds. If that is true, the two best as I see it are Mirai and Rachael,...

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To me, that shows exactly why we must have a skate-off at Nationals.

The way you see it, we should send Mirai and Rachael.

The way I see it we should send Alissa (the top U.S. finisher in the Grand Prix) and Agnes (after she wins the silver medal at Nationals )

The way Polynmer Bob sees it, we should send Caroline Zhang.

We need an objective way to decide these things besides just, "the way someone sees it."

janetfan said:

Speaking as a fan I love Natls. I love the electric atmosphere of Natls.

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Me, too! Count me in for popcorn and pizza! I like U.S. Nationals way more than any other event, including Worlds.

No way would I have such interest in what would feel like just another GP type "skating pageant."

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Although...you could look at it the other way around. If placement in the Grand Prix becomes a determinant for going to worlds, then maybe the GP would become less pageant-like and would take on a new seriousness and importance.

wallylutz said:

US has 2 spots in ladies this year, not if. Why should Mirai or Rachael be given special considerations? An argument can be made that Mirai's consistent implosions can't be trusted and her track record of getting dinged by tech panels, not just in 1 or 2 competitions, but one after another, domesticaly or internationaly, is troublesome. Rachael seems to run out o tricks, no matter how she skates, she seems to run into a ceiling. Ladies will be determined by how well they skate at the U.S. Nationals. Neither Alissa or Rachael should expect any special considerations. Conversely, Mirai will not be penalized in anyway either because she didn't qualify for GPF.

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Rachael has been "dinged" at four consecutive Intl events. Maybe more if I check her GP events from last season.
She seems to be battling Mirai for the honor of most dinged USA Lady. It is absolutely ridiculous to cite Mirai for getting hit with URs when Rachael was nailed 2 or more times at both of this seasons GP events as well as Worlds and the Olympics.

Yuna was dinged a couple of times last year and so was Mao. At the end of the day of is about scoring the most points.

Getting dinged in large depends on the wildly inconsistent thing the IJS refers to as a "tech panel." The one's who look at replay but lack the integrity to share what they see with fans.

A more political, underhanded situation I have never seen. What are they hiding - and who do they think they are fooling?

If the NFL went to replay and did not show the fans then naturally it would be suspicious and they would lose many fans.

janetfan said:

Rachael has been "dinged" at four consecutive Intl events. Maybe more if I check her GP events from last season.
She seems to be battling Mirai for the honor of most dinged USA Lady. It is absolutely ridiculous to cite Mirai for getting hit with URs when Rachael was nailed 2 or more times at both of this seasons GP events as well as Worlds and the Olympics.

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Exactly.

And this is why the idea of winner-take-all at U.S. Nationals is really the only set-up that makes sense.

We cannot have a "committee" trying to decide the issue by attempting to guess which skater the technical specialist at Worlds might want to ding the most.

Mathman said:

Me, too! Count me in for popcorn and pizza! I like U.S. Nationals way more than any other event, including Worlds.

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I'll bring the soda pop! Loves me some Nats!

Mathman said:

Although...you could look at it the other way around. If placement in the Grand Prix becomes a determinant for going to worlds, then maybe the GP would become less pageant-like and would take on a new seriousness and importance.

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True.

But if the Grand Prix became a determinant for going to Worlds, especially if it became the primary or sole determinant (with federations not allowed to send national champions to Worlds if they hadn't already participated in the GP), I would darn well hope that the ISU would expand the Grand Prix to make it even grander and allow more participants.

Otherwise, how could a newcomer break into the circuit to begin with?

Mathman said:

I would be OK with choosing the world team in a way that includes resutls in more than one competition (although in my heart I am with Janetfan on this one.)

But it's tricky. For one thing, I don't think we should use last year's results at all. Last year's Super Bowl winner does not get a free pass to this year's playoffs. So it would basically come down to the Grand Prix, then U.S. Nationals, then Four Continents.

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It's more in skating well in international competitions - not just an American comp. The prize for entry is not American but International.

I also think of some skaters making an impression in international comps, as it was with Yankowska&Coughlin. That could be a factor, too. However, in this case as I said above a one shot comp would be the answer to break up the 3 top teams into 2. The Committe could rubber stamp the results.
But there are many difficulties. You have to place at the top in U.S. Nationals even to make the Four Continent team.

If Abbott, Rippon and Mroz finished 1-2-3 at U.S. Nationals, then went to Four Continents and finished 3rd, 8th and 11th, in some order, what would that prove? They still would be the three that we sent to worlds.

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Are there any other Americans to consider? What if Armin skates into 2nd place at Nats? not impossible. Are we still sending the best of our Men to the Worlds if we leave out Rippon?

As for the Grand Prix events, they feature uneven competitive fields, and it is not always clear that the skaters who make the finals are better than some who don't.

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It's not always clear that the results at Nats are better than those that don't podium. I evaluate a skater on more than medals, but I know that that is not in accordance with the Rules, but it may be for some of the Select committee.

All the more reason why we don't need a committee.

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I will be the first to distrust the committee's decisions, but some posters need the Rules.

But...I hgave to say that if you already know who our top guns are this year, I take off my hat to you. :yes:.

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I think we all know that and it's not based on favoritism. Who would not know Davis/White are a shoe-in to be picked for the
Worlds?

In ladies we have two spots. We want the strongest possible team. Who should we send? Alissa and Rachael made the Grand Prix Final. But are they better than Mirai and Ashley? If Agnes Zawadski skates lights out at U.S. Nationals and gets second, should we send her to worlds?

Regardless of the medals (I reiterate) the all powerful impressions of skaters to represent their countries in an International Competition should be those skaters/teams who can stand up to the international competition, and have shown it at the GPs which is comprised of the world-wide top skaters, and not just those from the US rinks. (skaters who do not leave an impression at the GPs should also be noted.)

(I think Zawadski did show well at one of the GPs, as did Armin and certainly they should be looked again at the Nats.) I'm not against the Nats for consideration but I think there are other factors to be considered for choosing Worlds Team.

I get your point though, and we agree to disagree, I hope.

Mathman said:

I have since wondered whether the USFSA is a little bit ashamed of that decision. Like they sold their soul to the Devil in exchange for the deceptive promise of better results at worlds.

What profits a federation if it wins ever so many championships, but relinquishes its principles?

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Oh, Lord. If the USFSA had sent Katrina instead of a former world champion and lost the third spot _ and they probably would have _ they would have NEVER heard the end of it As it stands, most people remember that the U.S. lost their third lady spot the year they couldn't send the gold and silver medalists because of age. Few remember that Katrina got shafted ... right or wrong, I doubt the USFSA regrets that decision.

Honestly, I think the way the U.S. rules are now are pretty much fine.

There IS a way to consider past accomplishments. Sending Kimmie instead of Katrina is a perfect example. Kimmie had just medaled in both her GP events, as Silvia pointed out. It helped justify USFSA's decision to send Kimmie instead of Katrina. I think that decision as probably just fine, especially as USFSA didn't have the option of sending the gold and silver medalists. Hindsight is always great. But if Kimmie had managed to skate a bit better at worlds, nobody would be questioning that decision.

The USFSA gets to consider INT competitions under certain circumstances. They seem to do so sparingly _ as they should.

It's hard to imagine that more politicking wouldn't sneak in if they started giving less weight to Nationals placements. I would have been appalled if Mirai didn't get to go to the Olympics last year because Ashely made the final - or because Sasha was Sasha. And Mirai more than proved herself worthy.

I think it is interesting to consider different ISU rules. I would certainly hate to see Nationals diminished in value since it IS such a great event. On the other hand, it would be nice to see more of the best skaters get to go to worlds and it's hard to imagine how you could do that without giving more importance to more international events.

I also love the do-or-die feeling of U.S. Nationals but at the same time I find it very annoying and unfair that we don't see all of the best skaters in the World at the World Championsips (and Olympics).

I see more than 3 competitors from a single country competing at the Worlds/Olympics in all kinds of other sports. Skating is one of the most costly sports you partake in; it's not cool how people who have worked their asses off and spent large sums of money and achieved notable success are not allowed to compete at Worlds.

Perhaps instead of skaters specifically qualifying for Worlds via other events, the number of entries a country can send to Worlds should be raised and that amount shoud be determined by the placements at all of the various ISU events of the past year. A formula could easily be created and allow for up to, say, 6 skaters from a single country to be sent. Then each country can decide on their own who to send. Which, for the U.S., would mean only taking Nationals into account if that is how they wish to do it.

The U.S. ladies probably would have had 4 spots at last year's Worlds/Olympics based upon the results at 2009 Worlds and the 2009-2010 Grand Prix / Four Continents if a new system were put in place. But the 4th spot would have been dependant on someone winning a medal at Four Continents and that (presumably) means Sasha would have had to compete there and defeat Caroline Zhang if she wanted the spot. I assume U.S. Nationals would be used to determine the spots for Worlds/Olympics that have been gained only up to that point in time. It would be pretty sick to have a skater gain an extra spot for the country at 4CC and then not send them.

dorispulaski said:

Just to be clear, by I/M, do you mean the pairs team of Iliushechkina and Maisuradze? And who are K/K? The Kerrs? but they are past Euro medallists in dance-they qualified a second GBR team to go to Euros and Worlds; surely they should not be left out?

I'm thinking I have the wrong initials matched with the wrong teams... sorry : please help

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I/M is iilushechkina and Maisuradze, I think. I belive K/K is Kemp and King, the British pairs team. K/K has been in the bottom of the GP Events yet they go to World sbecause they are the winner out of ...wait for it.... TWO TEAMS.

Layfan said:

Oh, Lord. If the USFSA had sent Katrina instead of a former world champion and lost the third spot _ and they probably would have _ they would have NEVER heard the end of it

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True, but think of how USFSA could then pose as a crew of righteous martyrs, who sacrificed their all on the altar of "doing the right thing." .