How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

gkelly · Dec 2, 2010

I don't even know why we're discussing this in terms of the 2011 ladies, or the men and pairs for that matter. None of them have been so dominant that they deserve to make the team if they don't place at Nationals.

The only question this year is, should the committee have the discretion to name Davis/White to the world team if they have to withdraw from Nationals or by some unforeseeable fluke end up placing fourth.

Layfan · Dec 2, 2010

OK, how about this? Say Czisny, Wagner, Flatt, Nagasu, Gao all go clean. Does Czisny win? (Maybe, maybe not.)

Say Czisny goes clean, but Wagner, Flatt and Nagasu have rough nights. Does Czisny win? (She should.)

What's the difference between both cases? In the first case, Czisny rose to the occasion, but so did everyone else.

So which one of the chokers would you reward with a place on the team at the expense of Czisny? Are you so sure the "committee" would choose Rachael or Mirai instead? What if the "committee"
decided that Alissa winning SC and making the final was more impressive than Rachael's ninth place finish at last year's worlds. Hope you wouldn't be too disappointed.

I say none of the chokers should go because of this point gkelly just made:

I don't even know why we're discussing this in terms of the 2011 ladies, or the men and pairs for that matter. None of them have been so dominant that they deserve to make the team if they don't place at Nationals.

And because of this point that Mathman made:

But it still comes down to the opinions and preferences of the committee members. One committee member might weigh heavily the fact that Alissa Czisny won 2010 Skate Canada, medalled at Cup of Russia, and qualified number two for the Grand Prix Final.

Another committeeperson might say that Mirai's just-off-the podium finish at the Olympics trumps all. Yet another might say, that's yesterday's news, what has she done for us lately?

One committeeperson might want to look to the future and give heavy consideration to impressive results achieved at the junior level by skaters moving up to senior level this year, like Ross Minor or Christina Gao. Another committeeperson might say, let's wait and see.

It should never come down to: if Sam Smith is on the committee then Rachael Flatt goes to worlds, but if Pete Jones is on the committee instead, then it will be Agnes Zawadski.

The rules do allow some discretion - say if Evan, the reigning world champion, had been fourth, last year. Or if Michelle Kwan, the reigning world champion, had been fourth in 2004 or 2002. Those exceptions are very rare - as they should be.

But I guess we will just have to agree to disagree at this point.

Mathman · Dec 2, 2010

gkelly said:
I don't even know why we're discussing this in terms of the 2011 ladies, or the men and pairs for that matter. None of them have been so dominant that they deserve to make the team if they don't place at Nationals.

The only question this year is, should the committee have the discretion to name Davis/White to the world team if they have to withdraw from Nationals or by some unforeseeable fluke end up placing fourth.

To me, that's a tough question. If the question is, does the USFSA have the authority to send whoever they want, as long as it is in accordance with their rules, then, yes, of course they do. Skaters are sent to worlds, they are not invited by the ISU and they do not just show up on their own, no matter how dominant they are.

But -- Should the committee exercise this discretion in the particular case of Davis and White -- I don't know. (Yet another reason why I am glad I am not in this committee ).

However, I think the purpose of this thread is to raise a different question. Would it be a good idea (hypothetically) for the USFSA to revamp their rules and procedures altogether, and come up with a new formula for picking the world team -- one that gave heavy weight to international results and not so much to placement at Nationals?

Olympia · Dec 2, 2010

Mathman said:
However, I think the purpose of this thread is to raise a different question. Would it be a good idea (hypothetically) for the USFSA to revamp their rules and procedures altogether, and come up with a new formula for picking the world team -- one that gave heavy weight to international results and not so much to placement at Nationals?

One effect that this change would have is that skaters would be lining up to take part in the Grand Prix! No one (well, no Americans) would take that part of the season off. Though it would cause problems if a skater were to have an injury through the season that could realistically be rehabilitated by Nationals. That happens often in the precarious world of skating.

R.D. · Dec 2, 2010

Layfan said:
So which one of the chokers would you reward with a place on the team at the expense of Czisny? Are you so sure the "committee" would choose Rachael or Mirai instead?

It has NOTHING to do with what the "committee" would choose...(it's obvious to me they would just go by National results)...and EVERYTHING to do with an alternate approach.

Relative to her American competition, Czisny seems to be holding up fine in the GP. In pressure situations though her track record is pretty lousy.

Again though, whether I would send someone else in place of Czisny should the situation call for it depends on a) who it is, and b) how the results of the GPF turn out.

What if the "committee" decided that Alissa winning SC and making the final was more impressive than Rachael's ninth place finish at last year's worlds[?]

Again: what we don't know yet is how Alyssa skated at the final. And don't forget, Flatt made the final as well.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 2, 2010

gkelly said:
I don't even know why we're discussing this in terms of the 2011 ladies, or the men and pairs for that matter. None of them have been so dominant that they deserve to make the team if they don't place at Nationals.

The only question this year is, should the committee have the discretion to name Davis/White to the world team if they have to withdraw from Nationals or by some unforeseeable fluke end up placing fourth.

This is certainly the probability for this coming Nats, but I think the subject was discussed in general. As we said before, very often the Committee's choice is the same as the results of the Nationals. No doubt it will continue to do that.

That brings up the point made by MM: what do we need a Committee for? and I could add, the entire GPs are just practice sessions. But practicing for what? The Nats or the Worlds? Are you sure, they do not show any characteristics for winning the Worlds. We could eliminate the GPs as useless. No? But screams for Artistry - not Sport would be heard round the world. hmm.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 2, 2010

Mathman said:
To me, that's a tough question. If the question is, does the USFSA have the authority to send whoever they want, as long as it is in accordance with their rules, then, yes, of course they do. Skaters are sent to worlds, they are not invited by the ISU and they do not just show up on their own, no matter how dominant they are.

But -- Should the committee exercise this discretion in the particular case of Davis and White -- I don't know. (Yet another reason why I am glad I am not in this committee ).

However, I think the purpose of this thread is to raise a different question. Would it be a good idea (hypothetically) for the USFSA to revamp their rules and procedures altogether, and come up with a new formula for picking the world team -- one that gave heavy weight to international results and not so much to placement at Nationals?

This in essence is what the discussion is all about. How do we send the best team to the Worlds. Not just now as gkelly would want, but as a Rule. And there is a Rule that the expertise of the formed Committee needs to decide just that but should we drop the rule in favor of one competition? (Hanky panky in the Committee would amount the same as hanky panky at the judging of Nationals.)

janetfan · Dec 2, 2010

Joesitz said:
This in essence is what the discussion is all about. How do we send the best team to the Worlds. .)[/I]

What makes you think we haven't been sending the best team to Worlds?

PolymerBob · Dec 2, 2010

janetfan said:
What makes you think we haven't been sending the best team to Worlds?

Aside from this, not much.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2009/CAT002RS.HTM

Mathman · Dec 2, 2010

Just to make sure that we are all on the same page, this is what the official USFSA rules say about the selection process

To field the most competitive team U.S.Figure Skating’s [International Committee Management Subcommittee] will take into consideration … placement and competitive field at the following events in priority order.

(Here are the events, with U.S. men’s and ladies’ results so far.)

1. 2011 U.S. Nationals (still to come)

2. 2010/2011 Grand Prix Final (qualified: Czisny, Flatt, no men)

3. 2010 Worlds (Abbott 5th, Rippon 6th, Bradley 18th, Nagasu 7th, Flatt 9th)

4. 2010 Four Continents (Rippon 1st, Mroz 4th, Bradley 5th, Zhang 3rd, Dobbs 4th, Gilles 9th)

5. 2010 Junior Worlds (Messing 4th, Hochstein 5th, Zawadski 2nd, Baga 7th, Gao 8th)

6. 2010/2011 Junior Grand Prix[/i] (qualified: Farris, Messing, Dornbush, Aaron; Gao, Siraj, Gong, Baga)

So basically, as Gkelly wrote, none of the U.S. ladies or men has anything to write home about so far. Rippon’s 1st place at Four Continents might have been worth something if the field were stronger, but none of the top guys were there.

All in all – a pretty sad-sack showing. It looks like it’s Nationals or bust.

Mathman · Dec 2, 2010

Joesitz said:
We could eliminate the GPs as useless. No? But screams for Artistry - not Sport would be heard round the world. hmm.

I don't think it is about screams for artisty. (Have we seen anything remotely "artistic" in the Grand Prix this year?)

To me, every sporting event carries its own value. It is not necessary for it to lead to anything else. If you win the Onjrei Nepala Memorial or the U.S. Collegiate Championship, hey, good for you! You won the Ondrej Nepala Memorial or the U.S. Collegiate Championship!

By the way, I also have to object to the characterization of Grand Prix events as being "pageant-like." They are nothing like pageants. I went to the Ice Capades faithfully for years. I never saw a skater fall down three times. That happens routinely in the Grand Prix, never ever, ever in a pageant.

Tonichelle · Dec 2, 2010

Mathman said:
By the way, I also have to object to the characterization of Grand Prix events as being "pageant-like." They are nothing like pageants. I went to the Ice Capades faithfully for years. I never saw a skater fall down three times. That happens routinely in the Grand Prix, never ever, ever in a pageant.

Josee Chouinard had 4 falls when she did a show up here in 1999

Maria Butyrskaya had such a crappy first program she refused to come out for the second one.

Yuka Sato and Jason Dunjen were amazing though (and seeing Scotty live again was teh highlight)...

Mathman · Dec 2, 2010

Tonichelle said:
Josee Chouinard had 4 falls when she did a show up here in 1999

I guess show skating is more like competitions than I thought.

Tonichelle · Dec 2, 2010

Mathman said:
I guess show skating is more like competitions than I thought.

thing was she never gave up on the programs, and we loved her for it. She was definitely someone I enjoyed watching even with the falls (did before I saw her live, too). Maria B should have taken a page from Josee's book, after her second flub she was pretty much done in her first program. So frustrated. Who knows, maybe she was injured.

Yuka live is just amazing, I never really liked her before 1999, didn't have an opinion, but after seeing her skate effortlessly (and silently!) live was all it took to make me a fangirl!

R.D. · Dec 2, 2010

Tonichelle said:
Yuka live is just amazing

I think she was live on SOI last year and her performance was one of my faves of the evening. Again, you can just tell the difference between the pros and the amateurs. The former group really knows how to entertain an audience. The second group is still figuring it out.

Olympia · Dec 2, 2010

Tonichelle, I'm so glad to hear that that's what Yuka is like live. She's been one of my faves for a long time, and to know that her ankles-down work is as impressive in the arena as it is onscreen is a thrill. I imagine that Gordeyeva is also in that realm. A friend who saw her live said that Katia is very, very fast around the rink, and various commentators have said that like Yuka, she's very quiet across the ice.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 3, 2010

Mathman said:
I don't think it is about screams for artisty. (Have we seen anything remotely "artistic" in the Grand Prix this year?)

You are opining about this year only as does gkelly. I thought the discussion was about the Select Committee versus the National results as the two main topics to select a strong team, in general. btw, artistry rules and you know it. Sports is used to defend a favorite only.

To me, every sporting event carries its own value. It is not necessary for it to lead to anything else. If you win the Onjrei Nepala Memorial or the U.S. Collegiate Championship, hey, good for you! You won the Ondrej Nepala Memorial or the U.S. Collegiate Championship!

ok.

By the way, I also have to object to the characterization of Grand Prix events as being "pageant-like." They are nothing like pageants. I went to the Ice Capades faithfully for years. I never saw a skater fall down three times. That happens routinely in the Grand Prix, never ever, ever in a pageant.

I never said the GPs were like pagaents. You have me mixed up with another poster. I see the Grand Prix as a series of competitions giving contestants more than one chance to show what they can do.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 3, 2010

Mathman said:
So basically, as Gkelly wrote, none of the U.S. ladies or men has anything to write home about so far. Rippon’s 1st place at Four Continents might have been worth something if the field were stronger, but none of the top guys were there.

All in all – a pretty sad-sack showing. It looks like it’s Nationals or bust.

Nothing wrong with opining about this season but we lose the discussion about the Select Committee versus the US Nationals results in general.

We do not have Kwan, Cohen and Kirk anymore when the Committe had little to discuss. We all knew who would comprise the strongest team for Worlds, and so forth for other Divisions at that time. But in recent years, discussions of 'they should have sent so and so' were happening.

I agree this is a bleak year, but I can foresee the US skaters getting top 10 placements and having Ladies and Pairs qualify each for 3 competitors in the following season. What we need is a strong Team. Are the results of the US Nats going to bring us that strong team?

Mathman · Dec 3, 2010

Joesitz said:
I never said the GPs were like pageants.

That part of my post was not directed at you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Some others have downplayed the Grand Prix events for not being serious competitions. I was commenting on that.

PolymerBob · Dec 3, 2010

Joesitz said:
What we need is a strong Team. Are the results of the US Nats going to bring us that strong team?

Absolutely. Unless there are monkey tricks with the scoring because somebody decides there should be a real "lady" on the team.
Look at it this way. The USFSA wanted a "lady" on the World team. And as a result, they got two.

What's interesting is that there are 2 arguments going on here. We are arguing over how the USFSA should pick a World team. That's all well and good. But we are also arguing over how they actually do pick a team. That should not be happening.

How much should U.S. Nationals count for World team selection?

gkelly

Layfan

Mathman

Olympia

R.D.

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

PolymerBob

Mathman

Mathman

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Mathman

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

R.D.

Olympia

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

PolymerBob

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