The Leading Ladies at the forthcoming US Nationals

Tonichelle said:

we didn't see it last year when many believed she clearly outskated Rachael... Rachael has done everything the USFSA has asked, and is solid when Mirai still has her "bipolar" moments on the ice...

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Yeah, but then Mirai beat Rachael at both the Olympics and worlds. I can see Silverlake's point and I would not rule it out - I kind of went into the season with that point of view. But it would have helped Mirai's cause if she had done better during the GP. She was out of sorts and Rachael was her usual solid self and made the final. So in the end I think we are back to square one and I don't think either will get preferential treatment. I hope they don't, anyway.

(BTW, I'm talking about subconscious preferential treament in the judging - PCS and what not. I'm not talking about whether the GP results will be taken account by the "committee" that is being so heatedly discussed in the other thread. I don't think those results will be taken into account unless Rachael or Alissa win the final and say, wind up third at nationals. Even then I don't think it will be taken into account but I could see a stronger case being made for it.)

Mirai did receive +3s across the board for both her laybacks at Worlds last year. I believe that there have only been three ladies who have received +3s across the board for their spins (all laybacks): Alissa, Mirai, and Caroline- All American ladies .
Though I agree, the I-spin that Alissa (and Mao) do are far more attractive... Alissa even does that A-frame spin in her SP. Though one problem I have with one of Alissa's spins is in her camel, how she has to drop twice, once for the donut, once to raise up the leg in the "bielmann" catchfoot.

What "vile sideways spin"? Doesn't Alissa do that too? Or are you talking about the I-spin that nobody really but Sasha can do justice

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I agree with all of this - I've also noticed that about Alissa's camel spins but she more than makes up for it with her centeredness. I prefer Alissa's spins to Mirai's because I admire how perfectly centered they are - even though Mirai's are faster. Or at least last year they were. If only we could merge the two - then we'd have the Lambiel of ladies In any case, both ladies have great qualities....

I always prefer a perfect, more refined spin position to an incredibly flexible one. I prefer Sasha's layback to Mirai's, even though Mirai can bend her back farther. Alissa's too. Alissa and Sasha's layback, especially Sasha's, presents a prettier, more controlled, more refined picture.

I think comparing Alissa's spins with Mirai's speaks to the characterization of their skating in general. Mirai is more athletic, faster and has higher and more difficult jumps. Overall, I think she beats Alissa when she's at her best at competition - she has has more scoring potential and she's younger so it's much easier to see Mirai improving than Alissa. But Alissa's skating is far more refined and elegant than Mirai's. The centered and classic position of her spins are just one example. I think Mirai makes up for it with her energy and her skating is already beautiful and could become even more refined over the years if she pays attention to the right thing.

Anyway, I enjoy watch both skaters and I'm glad I'm not a judge so I don't have to choose which one is my favorite.

Tonichelle said:

we didn't see it last year when many believed she clearly outskated Rachael... Rachael has done everything the USFSA has asked, and is solid when Mirai still has her "bipolar" moments on the ice...

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Well in a way, we did. With only being credited with 3 triples in the LP her score of 118+ was quite generous and could have been much lower. The technical caller at nationals was just very strict and Mirai had been getting lots of downgrades for the past 2 seasons, so I don't think it was a surprise she got issued those URs at nationals. The other thing is I think the USFSA had more faith in Rachael before she went to finish behind Mirai at the Olympics and Worlds, and the same can be said of Alissa before she didn't do well at 09 Worlds and didn't have a great 09-10 season despite being national champion which should have given her confidence and helped her be more consistent, but didn't.

Layfan said:

I think comparing Alissa's spins with Mirai's speaks to the characterization of their skating in general. Mirai is more athletic, faster and has higher and more difficult jumps. Overall, I think she beats Alissa when she's at her best at competition - she has has more scoring potential and she's younger so it's much easier to see Mirai improving than Alissa. But Alissa's skating is far more refined and elegant than Mirai's. The centered and classic position of her spins are just one example. I think Mirai makes up for it with her energy and her skating is already beautiful and could become even more refined over the years if she pays attention to the right thing.

Anyway, I enjoy watch both skaters and I'm glad I'm not a judge so I don't have to choose which one is my favorite.

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I agree with this. When "on", Mirai is truly the full package - great speed, big jumps, fast, flexible spins, flexibility in spirals, and great charisma, whereas Alissa at her best is an elegant, lyrical skater - exquisite, great spins, flexibility and artistry, but you can't ignore her low jumps, lack of speed, and introverted presence on the ice. Watching Mirai skate her FS at the Olympics and her SP at Worlds, she looked confident, and that added a lot to the impact of her programs. As for Alissa, I can't say I've ever seen her skate with a lot of outward confidence, and it does detract a little from her overall performance, at least IMO. The CBC commentators mentioned this at the 09 Worlds when they said even though Alissa had a great FS, it could be greatly improved if she upped her speed and didn't look down at the ice so much.

Layfan said:

I agree with all of this - I've also noticed that about Alissa's camel spins but she more than makes up for it with her centeredness. I prefer Alissa's spins to Mirai's because I admire how perfectly centered they are - even though Mirai's are faster. Or at least last year they were. If only we could merge the two - then we'd have the Lambiel of ladies In any case, both ladies have great qualities....

I always prefer a perfect, more refined spin position to an incredibly flexible one. I prefer Sasha's layback to Mirai's, even though Mirai can bend her back farther. Alissa's too. Alissa and Sasha's layback, especially Sasha's, presents a prettier, more controlled, more refined picture.

I think comparing Alissa's spins with Mirai's speaks to the characterization of their skating in general. Mirai is more athletic, faster and has higher and more difficult jumps. Overall, I think she beats Alissa when she's at her best at competition - she has has more scoring potential and she's younger so it's much easier to see Mirai improving than Alissa. But Alissa's skating is far more refined and elegant than Mirai's. The centered and classic position of her spins are just one example. I think Mirai makes up for it with her energy and her skating is already beautiful and could become even more refined over the years if she pays attention to the right thing.

Anyway, I enjoy watch both skaters and I'm glad I'm not a judge so I don't have to choose which one is my favorite.

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Interesting thoughts - and Sasha for me still had the most beautiful layback.....but Alissa's is looking very beautiful this season.

Tara commented that Mirai has the most incredible layback combo she has ever seen.....

BTW, I do recall reading last season Mirai had the top scores for spins and Alissa was second.

Mirai's spins have not seemed nearly as good this season - but I bet they will be much better at Natls. I think she needs them as part of her "package."

Something harder for me to define is how beautifully and effortlessly Mira moves over the ice. It just seems better than Alissa or Sasha for that matter. I think it has to do with being more athletic, and just naturally stronger.

Is it also about better edges/skating skills? Frank has coached many girls over the years and he said none of them could accelerate as effortlessly as Mirai does.

janetfan said:

Interesting thoughts - and Sasha for me still had the most beautiful layback.....but Alissa's is looking very beautiful this season.

Tara commented that Mirai has the most incredible layback combo she has ever seen.....

BTW, I do recall reading last season Mirai had the top scores for spins and Alissa was second.

Mirai's spins have not seemed nearly as good this season - but I bet they will be much better at Natls. I think she needs them as part of her "package."

Something harder for me to define is how beautifully and effortlessly Mira moves over the ice. It just seems better than Alissa or Sasha for that matter. I think it has to do with being more athletic, and just naturally stronger.

Is it also about better edges/skating skills? Frank has coached many girls over the years and he said none of them could accelerate as effortlessly as Mirai does.

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I can only guess, not being a skater, but I imagine that it has a lot to do with better edges, knee bends, etc. Again, I'm only guessing, but I think Mirai is more a natural at this than Alissa or Sasha. The way some people talk about Sasha, you would think that she never looked up the definition of edging and and was born with the perfect layback and therefore never practiced skating skills a day in her life. Me, I say all of these girls do the best they can with the natural abilities they have. Who am I to say that Sasha's edging weren't to the best ofher abilities?

Anyway, Mirai's speed makes her a more powerful skater than Sasha and certainly Alissa. Plus, Mirai has control over her skating - she has that similar controlled speed that Yuna has and it makes them both spectacular. Not that Mirai is as good as Yuna ... yet...

I agree with Tara about Mirai's spin combo. What was amazing was she was able to change into such incredible positions and still keep spinning at top speed! While I like Sasha's layback best Mirai's combo was amazing. I'm not sure what Doris means by Mirai's "sideways" layback but I can't remember Mirai doing anything last year that I would describe as "vile." To each her own..

Even so - nobody on this planet matches Sasha's positions. Also her clarity and sharpness of movement. It's like you have said over and over again, Janetfan: Let's wait until Mirai wins multiple world and Olympic medals before we start comparing her to Sasha.

Mathman said:

^ Are you saying that the judges at Nationals should give low scores to the old skaters that haven't got it done at Worlds, and give high scores to the promising up-and-comers?

Or are you saying that the USFSA should send the promising youngsters to Worlds regardless of the results at Nationals?

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No, that's not what I mean - even if I typed it that way... I always go with the hope that whoever skates the best will win. I was just trying to make a hypothecial case that if all things are equal and scores come down to who the judges want to send to Worlds, I wouldn't be upset if they went younger w/ potential vs. older w/ paid dues. Of course, if this happened I'd be the first one stomping my little foot at the unfairness of it all...

Mathman said:

^ This discussion is starting to depress me. If the National championship is decided by who gets held up unfairly and who doesn't, and by who the USFSA wants to send somewhere, then it will lose its interest as a competition.

Why can't they just hold the competition and judge it fairly to the best of the judges' abiltities, letting the chips fall as they may?

Is that just hopelessly naive?

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No, you are not naive. We are just being cynical. Like I stated above, I will NOT be happy if politics make up the US team to Worlds. Sports should be fair or its just the WWE.

Layfan said:

Anyway, Mirai's speed makes her a more powerful skater than Sasha and certainly Alissa. Plus, Mirai has control over her skating - she has that similar controlled speed that Yuna has and it makes them both spectacular. Not that Mirai is as good as Yuna ... yet...

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I think so too. Comparing Mirai and Alissa is like comparing Yuna to Mao, and it just so happens that Yuna has beat out Mao for a lot of titles recently. It seems the style she and Mirai have is more highly regarded by the judges, even though Alissa and Mao's skating may be more beautiful in some aspects. Mirai's skating just leaves a bigger, better impression than Alissa's does, IMO.

silverlake22 said:

I think so too. Comparing Mirai and Alissa is like comparing Yuna to Mao, and it just so happens that Yuna has beat out Mao for a lot of titles recently. It seems the style she and Mirai have is more highly regarded by the judges, even though Alissa and Mao's skating may be more beautiful in some aspects. Mirai's skating just leaves a bigger, better impression than Alissa's does, IMO.

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Well, what I think is that Yuna's skating won more points - and fairly. With Mirai and Alissa it remains to be seen, IMO, because those two are so hot-and-cold. And let's not forget that Alissa is the highest scoring U.S. lady this season I do think Mirai can outscore Alissa when both are clean, mainly because she has more difficult jumps. In fact, I think Mirai can compete with the best in the world IF she is perfect. I doubt she could beat Yuna or Mao (if the real Mao comes back to us). But she could beat Miki and everyone else.
However, I think the judges love to give Alissa high scores whenever she lets them. She gets big bonuses for her spins and at least she doesn't have to worry about having a flutz.
It bothers some people that Alissa is not a fast skater but I think she puts together programs that show her qualities and not weaknesses. She doesn't go for explosive footwork - but she is one of the few that can pull off beautiful choreo without resorting to arm flailing and such.

Alissa has qualities that no other lady skater in the world has right now. I think she and Mirai are our two USA ladies that stand out from the crowd and could compete with the top. If only they could just pull it together when it counts!!

Christina Gao's ISU bio has been updated and she's now listed as 165 cm . I don't know if that's accurate but if it is I hope she doesn't grow much more, it could be bad news for her gorgeous jumps.

Boy, talk about counting your chickens...smh. Lol

The latest on Rachael's injury: http://www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid=504615.html#five+questions+with+rachael+flatt

I can't wait until Friday, which should give us all a better view of how Rachael's coping with the injury, and if it has truly resolved itself. I'm hoping & praying that all is fine and she is able to skate pain-free/injury free/full out! And everybody else as well, of course, that goes without saying. After all the very best competitions are when everybody skates their best & you win! arty:

R.D. said:

Boy, talk about counting your chickens...smh. Lol

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:scowl: well most girls don't grow 9 centimeters over the course of 1 year at the age of 16, so it was unexpected. And who knows, maybe she can break then trend of tall skaters being headcases

Glad to hear Rachael's injury is mostly better. I hope she and Alissa kick some butt and prevent the Japanese from sweeping the podium. Same to Christina and Yasmin, hopefully they can prevent the Russians from sweeping the podium at the junior event.

Nadine said:

The latest on Rachael's injury: http://www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid=504615.html#five+questions+with+rachael+flatt

I can't wait until Friday, which should give us all a better view of how Rachael's coping with the injury, and if it has truly resolved itself. I'm hoping & praying that all is fine and she is able to skate pain-free/injury free/full out! And everybody else as well, of course, that goes without saying. After all the very best competitions are when everybody skates their best & you win! arty:

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Thanks Nadine! Geez, that sounds awful - the part about how it hurt just to put her foot in her boot made me cringe.

But it seems like Rachael is doing fine and it confident about the GP final. That's a pretty picture of her too

i would also include--Christina Gao, Agnes Zadawacki,
who i would like to see is
but results at nationals, the top 2 would be best.
provided nationals results are fair.

Over at FSUniverse, I put together a table of all current U.S. ladies along with the count of ISU medals, junior or senior, that they have won. ( B-level events were excluded. ) I have updated it with Grand Prix and Junior GP results. ( Yes, I included Vanessa. ) The results are interesting. Our top ladies are clumped together fairly closely, despite the differences in length of time skating. Christina is working her way up the list very quickly.

Skater ..................... medals

Caroline Zhang ………..…. 11
Ashley Wagner ………...…. 9
Rachael Flatt …….....……. 9
Alissa Czisny …......………. 8
Mirai Nagasu ……......……. 6
Christina Gao ……......……. 5
Alexe Gilles ……….........…. 4
Danielle Kahle ……….....…. 4
Kristiene Musademba ....… 4
Becky Bereswill ……....……. 3
Kiri Baga …............………. 3
Amanda Dobbs ……....……. 2
Melissa Bulanhagui ……..…. 2
Yasmin Siraj …........………. 2
Agnes Zawadski ……..……. 1
Ellie Kawamura …....………. 1
Kristiene Gong ….....………. 1
Vanessa Lam ……..…………. 1

Well two big podium hopes for nationals - Christina Gao and Yasmin Siraj - had rough outings in the SP at the JGPF this morning and are currently sitting in 7th and 8th place with not-so-hot scores. Of course this doesn't really mean anything, but I'll say I was quite surprised to see them so far down in the standings. I'm hoping they can both redeem themselves tomorrow and move up in the standings to go into nationals with some positive energy. At their best they are both great!

For what it's worth, if Senior B competition medals are included (they are ISU events), the current U.S. ladies' Senior international medal count to date is:

9 Czisny: 6 GP medals (2 gold, 2 silver, 2 bronze), 3 Sr B (2 gold, 1 silver), starting in fall of 2004
5 Zhang: Four Continents bronze, 3 GP medals (1 silver, 2 bronze), World Team Trophy bronze, starting in fall of 2007
4 Flatt: 4 GP silvers, starting in fall of 2008
4 Wagner: 4 GP (1 silver, 3 bronze), starting in fall of 2007
1 Nagasu: GP silver, starting in fall of 2008
1 Bulanhagui: Sr B bronze this season
1 Dobbs: Sr B bronze last season

silverlake22 said:

Well two big podium hopes for nationals - Christina Gao and Yasmin Siraj - had rough outings in the SP at the JGPF this morning and are currently sitting in 7th and 8th place with not-so-hot scores. Of course this doesn't really mean anything, but I'll say I was quite surprised to see them so far down in the standings. I'm hoping they can both redeem themselves tomorrow and move up in the standings to go into nationals with some positive energy. At their best they are both great!

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Since when are they big podium hopes? They need 3 of Rachael, Mirai, Ashley, Alissa, Agnes to have a serious melt down for them to sneak in. 2 are likely (Alissa and Agnes) the other 3 are more consistent.

FlattFan said:

Since when are they big podium hopes? They need 3 of Rachael, Mirai, Ashley, Alissa, Agnes to have a serious melt down for them to sneak in. 2 are likely (Alissa and Agnes) the other 3 are more consistent.

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Maybe podium hopes was the wrong word, expected to do quite well at nationals more fitting? Anyways I'm shocked, especially at Yasmin, that was a real meltdown. Christina didn't seem so bad but she must of got dinged with downgrades looking at her scores. Maybe it's just nerves though and not technique problems and they will do much better tomorrow and at nationals.

silverlake22 said:

Maybe podium hopes was the wrong word, expected to do quite well at nationals more fitting? Anyways I'm shocked, especially at Yasmin, that was a real meltdown. Christina didn't seem so bad but she must of got dinged with downgrades looking at her scores. Maybe it's just nerves though and not technique problems and they will do much better tomorrow and at nationals.

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I hope all three girls can deliver great long programs tomorrow. Build up their confidence heading into nationals, if anything.