Ladies Short Program

[dorispulaski]

Rachael Flatt has been criticized perhaps more than any female skater on GS in the last couple years, except for Mira Leung. That would include many posts by you, janetfan, and by Blades, as you acknowledged in your post above. That's OK. You're entitled to hate her skating, her appearance, and any other thing about her, (other than her character) and criticize those things, and to root against her, if that's your thing. However, to claim that no one allows you to criticize Rachael Flatt on GS is just not factual.

You, OTOH, find Sasha so above criticism that you have to score off people on the subject even when the thread is not about Sasha. And of course, if you want the right to hate everything about Rachael, and to be vocal about it at all times and in all threads, you really have, in the interest of fairness, to allow the same freedom to other posters about your favorites.

In fact, the continuous criticism of Rachael tends to give rise to "the underdog effect" in her favor. The "underdog effect" occurs when someone is so continuously criticized that it seems like severe piling on, if not bashing.

That causes people who get tired of the piling on to say a nice thing every once in a while about the skater, just for variety, even though she/he is not their favorite. And that emboldens people for whom he/she is a favorite to have the guts to brave public criticism for their "bad taste" and to post to that effect.

If this escalates, other people actually become fond of the underdog, and fond of their championing of the underdog, and start searching for positive things to like about the underdog. Some will even become uberfans of the underdog.

I suspect this is not your intention, but it is often how things work.

[janetfan]

Rachael Flatt has been criticized perhaps more than any female skater on GS in the last couple years, except for Mira Leung. That would include many posts by you, janetfan, and by Blades, as you acknowledged in your post above. That's OK. You're entitled to hate her skating, her appearance, and any other thing about her, (other than her character) and criticize those things, and to root against her, if that's your thing. However, to claim that no one allows you to criticize Rachael Flatt on GS is just not factual.

You, OTOH, find Sasha so above criticism that you have to score off people on the subject even when the thread is not about Sasha. And of course, if you want the right to hate everything about Rachael, and to be vocal about it at all times and in all threads, you really have, in the interest of fairness, to allow the same freedom to other posters about your favorites.

In fact, the continuous criticism of Rachael tends to give rise to "the underdog effect" in her favor. The "underdog effect" occurs when someone is so continuously criticized that it seems like severe piling on, if not bashing.

That causes people who get tired of the piling on to say a nice thing every once in a while about the skater, just for variety, even though she/he is not their favorite. And that emboldens people for whom he/she is a favorite to have the guts to brave public criticism for their "bad taste" and to post to that effect.

If this escalates, other people actually become fond of the underdog, and fond of their championing of the underdog, and start searching for positive things to like about the underdog. Some will even become uberfans of the underdog.

I suspect this is not your intention, but it is often how things work.

I agree with a few of your thoughts here - except it is far from TRUE that Rachael has ever received as many negative posts as Sasha. That is hilarious
That is factually not only wrong but wrong by miles.

There are 2-3 threads now mostly filled with negative remarks about Alissa. Most of those remarks are from Flatt fans.
Go figure

I have never commented on Flatt's appearance - and you are WRONG to say that. I think Rachael is cute enough and I have never - and will never comment about her "weight" which I find to be a non-factor. Others have - but you let them slip by because they have been here longer than me.

I may agree with you to an extent but youre post is full of inaccuracies.

My only beef with Flatt is that she received uncalled for scores at Natls last season. Her pcs were inflated and her URs were not called. If I am wrong - then so is every single panel of Intl judges that have scored her in the past two seasons.

Can you make a case for that? I don't think so.......and if I am wrong so are all of the Intl judges. Better for you not to go there as the facts and scores make it clear my point is beyond fair.

This season I wish that Natls will be scored by the way they skate. I seriously doubt that we will see that.

I don't want Rachael gifted - and I don't want her cheated. I get so tired of the "pageant effect" we see at skating "competitions. I say "pageant" because it sounds nicer than saying "dog show" effect.

It is one and the same when reputation and backroom politics determine how skaters will be scored. We saw that last season - and it is clear that Rachael will never, ever approach 200+ points again - and indeed she has never skated well enough in her career to justify such a high score.

We must disagree - but atleast I try to stick with the facts........

[Layfan]

^ I think people are made to feel more guilty about criticizing Rachael than others.

People constantly say bad things about Evan. And others defend Evan but it isn't with the same vibe: you are a horrible, mean person person because you have criticized Evan. I'll also point out that people openly attack Evan's character all the time. They also attack Sasha's character. She's been called "stuck up" on this forum. People imply that she's lazy and last year people implied that she was lying about being injured and that her comeback was fake and she never had any intention of going to nationals. For some reason that seemed to be okay with a lot of people around here - even some of the mildest posters didn't seem to mind that Sasha was being slammed in this mean way.

While posters are tough on Rachael's skating, I haven't ever seen her character attacked. Not that it should be - what is there to attack?

Doris - you have every right to defend Rachael. I feel others have every right to defend Sasha and it's not the same thing as thinking someone is above criticism.

Rachael has several arch defenders on this forum. Every time I dare to criticize her skating (and I try to be constructive about it) I fully expect those defenders to come out with their fangs and that's fine. I think it's great that Rachael has ardent defenders - I have no problem with it.

What Blades said about Rachael's skating may have been valid - even if he was a bit tactless about it. And look at the way so many people have immediately rushed to Rachael's defense. That's fine. And it should be fine that it happens for Sasha too.

[ImaginaryPogue]

doris, we're not allowed to hate/criticize a skater's "character" on GS? I think I misunderstand this part.

[dorispulaski]

Well, if someone accused a skater of a felony, assault, prostitutions, stealing, or a serious character flaw of some sort, like bribing judges or USFS officials, I would expect to see a link demonstrating that fact.

What I was refering to there about character was more our well-known "no unsubstantiated gossip" rule.

But as to USFS liking Rachael, I just received my nationals tickets. There are pictures of Mirai, with a caption reading 2008 US Champion, and Ashley (that one really puzzles me) on them, Caydee & Jeremy, Evan and lots and lots of pictures of Davis and White. If they like her, they are certainly advertising her No pictures of Alissa, Rachael, Jeremy or Evora & Ladwig, that I've found yet.

I found it a bit odd.

Strictly speaking, I'm not a fan of ladies' skating at all and haven't been since about 2002. I only read the ladies threads at all because of moderating stuff. So I didn't read ladies threads between 2002 and 2008, when I first took this moderating gig.

[R.D.]

In fact, the continuous criticism of Rachael tends to give rise to "the underdog effect" in her favor. The "underdog effect" occurs when someone is so continuously criticized that it seems like severe piling on, if not bashing.

That causes people who get tired of the piling on to say a nice thing every once in a while about the skater, just for variety, even though she/he is not their favorite. And that emboldens people for whom he/she is a favorite to have the guts to brave public criticism for their "bad taste" and to post to that effect.

If this escalates, other people actually become fond of the underdog, and fond of their championing of the underdog, and start searching for positive things to like about the underdog. Some will even become uberfans of the underdog.

I suspect this is not your intention, but it is often how things work.

Someone gets it!

But it's not just Flatt; you can put any other skater's name and the statement would still be valid. I'd even argue that it works in reverse, too: those who continually wax poetic about a particular skater. People who are annoyed are going to begin to find faults in said skater and point them out...and then for some, it can get extreme.

One thing though: I do have to disagree with the "uberfan" part- for example, I don't know of anyone who became a staunch Cohenhead or Slutskaya fanatic due to the actions of Kwaniacs. However, I do think that it enables those who are ALREADY uberfans of the rival skater to take their uberfandom to a whole new level.

[Layfan]

^ Cohenhead ....

[Blades of Passion]

Hint: grow up, BoP.

LOL.

You have very actively "rooted against" every single female American skater, with exception to Rachael Flatt. I think I speak for everyone when I say you have no room at all to be making some kind of declaration about how we should all try to be "nicer" towards every skater, regardless of how we feel about their skating.

I don't believe I have ever specifically rooted against Rachael Flatt in the first place. I would certainly wish for competition results to turn out such that the best skaters/programs rise to the top, though. Which would automatically mean, yes, I hope she doesn't place that well when up against a much more talented field. But let's be honest and cut through the crap - if you aren't rooting for someone, then you basically ARE intrinsically rooting against them (given that there are other people you want to do well). If you hope that skaters A, B, and C make the podium, it means you hope that skaters D, E, and F DON'T make the podium.

Looking at it in any other way is just superficial posing. We all want the skaters who we feel are the best to skate their best and place the highest as a result. My statement earlier was that it's better to root against someone based upon their skating rather than what country they are from. I still stand by that. Not preferring someone because of their skating speaks to the actual quality of sport/art/performance that we want to see. Not preferring someone because of Nationality is mainly just ignorant.

[Mathman]

^ Cohenhead ....

The second greatest fan name in skating, after the Maosketeers.

[R.D.]

the Maosketeers.

haven't heard of that one before...heh, who came up with that one?

[Mathman]

But let's be honest and cut through the crap - if you aren't rooting for someone, then you basically ARE intrinsically rooting against them (given that there are other people you want to do well). If you hope that skaters A, B, and C make the podium, it means you hope that skaters D, E, and F DON'T make the podium.

I think "rooting against" is unfortunate language. As Seniorita remarked when she tired to translate it into Greek, the concept of "cheering against" almost seems a contradiction in terms. It seems like it could only mean something like shouting at a skater "I hope you screw up!" and then applauding gleefully when she falls.

In particular, thinking that someone is a bad skater is not a reason for cheering when she skates badly, as far as I can see. (Of course hating Ohio State -- that makes perfect sense! )

haven't heard of that one before...heh, who came up with that one?

And if you are a fan of both Miki and Mao...

[R.D.]

It's not necessarily "rooting against". It's just simply hoping for "anyone but".

[miki88]

And if you are a fan of both Miki and Mao...

Mikey Maose

[R.D.]

Mikey Maose

haha now that's a good one.

[janetfan]

I think "rooting against" is unfortunate language. As Seniorita remarked when she tired to translate it into Greek, the concept of "cheering against" almost seems a contradiction in terms. It seems like it could only mean something like shouting at a skater "I hope you screw up!" and then applauding gleefully when she falls.

...

A contradiction in terms ....... maybe if you are Greek.

Serioulsy, what you are saying sounds nice but like a little child's fairytale.

Come to Philly some time for an Eagles game and you will see fans rooting for and AGAINST and we could care less how they do it in Greece or anywhere else.

Don't forget - we are the fans who famously booed Santa Claus off the field at halftime

What blades wrote seems truthful and honest. This other stuff, as he wrote is a bunch of posing.

Please don't tell me that you rooted for Michelle and also rooted for Irina and expect me to believe it.

Impossible for a kwaniac, no?