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Thread: Ladies and the Quad

  1. #1
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Ladies and the Quad

    Mathman just reported that a Japanese female skater (jr.) landed a quad salchow. While this is quite an amazing feat, it really does not matter to me if the ladies do one more turn in the air. With the men it has become a required jump, but the ladies so far not. I would rather see the ladies concentrating on their artistic moves and landing solid triple jumps. I could watch Yuka Sato skate all day. She is a joy.

    http://www.sunsetdentalpc.com/wic013-1a.jpg
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-29-2003 at 11:01 AM.

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    I completely agree, Ladskater. The men's quads are exciting, but I was just as happy watching back in 95 when all you needed was an 8 triple program to win. Now, with some notable exceptions, you see so many injured and fatigued male skaters just trying to keep up. I'd hate to see that with the ladies. Most top ladies can't even master a reliable 3/3, so imagine what a mess concentrating on quad attempts would create! Remember when Sasha was so intent on landing that quad? Her skating really suffered during that time. Certainly, that is just one skater, but I would also rather see more focus on the refinement of artistry skills and overall technique in all of the elements.

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    I do wish they'd get the triples solid as well before adding hefty combos and quads. Most of the time I find the quads performed by ladies not all that aesthetically pleasing, they are usually slighted cheated with wobbly landings. If someone can show me a perfectly clean quad performed by a woman, please do.

  4. #4
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    So far this seems to be a junior skater phenomenon. Both Michelle at 15 and Tara at 15 were super little jumping beans. But I don't think that either one of them added much to their jump reportoire after age 17 or so. Sasha at 17 practiced a quad along with several triple/triples. When she stopped doing that and concentrated instead on her skating she shot up the senior ranks like a rocket. All of these Japanese girls are 16 or younger.

    So it seems to be a natural progression that young ladies jump, jump, jump as juniors; then as they reach physical and artistic maturity, other aspects of their skating come to the fore. Yoshie Onda is a good example of a skater who was all jump a year or two ago, and is just now developing some grace and artistry to go along with it. I think that she has stopped trying the triple Axel.

    When Michelle won the 2003 world championship she was light years ahead of the field, even though she did only a 6-triple program with no quad, no triple Axel, and no triple/triple. I think that's a good sign that the sport still requires a proper balance between athleticism and grace.

    Sasha has not so much as attempted a triple/triple this season, but her overall skating has given her 197 points in each of her Grand Prix events, based on the overall quality of her skating.

    Mathman

    Ladskater, my curiosity is killing me, I just have to ask: Why does the Sunset Dental Care web site host a beautiful picture of Yuka Sato? Just a reminder, if an image is copyrighted then in most cases we can only post the URL, not the image.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-28-2003 at 08:06 PM.

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    Hogwarts' #1 MK fanatic
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    Originally posted by BronzeisGolden
    I completely agree, Ladskater. The men's quads are exciting, but I was just as happy watching back in 95 when all you needed was an 8 triple program to win. Now, with some notable exceptions, you see so many injured and fatigued male skaters just trying to keep up. I'd hate to see that with the ladies. Most top ladies can't even master a reliable 3/3, so imagine what a mess concentrating on quad attempts would create! Remember when Sasha was so intent on landing that quad? Her skating really suffered during that time. Certainly, that is just one skater, but I would also rather see more focus on the refinement of artistry skills and overall technique in all of the elements.
    ITA. It puzzles me as to why they would want to shorten
    their careers over doing a quad.
    Looking at Alexei with his hurt hip, Plushy with his injured
    knee, and so many other male skaters injured from
    attempting quads, why would any female skater want
    to go through it ? :\ The human body wasn't made to take
    that kind of punishment, no matter how hard you train.

    --Hermione

  6. #6
    Tripping on the Podium
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    IMO, the quad is the gold standard. The "bar," so to speak. Back in the day it was the triple, and people said the same things. "The human body wasn't meant to take such punishment!" "Look at all the injuries." Yea, yea. That's fine to say when you're not competing at the Olympics. Today, triples are common, and you cannot win a major competition without more than one. If the past is a good predictor of the future, there will come a day when quads will become common as well, and a requirement for the serious competitor. If you look at Olympic history, you will note that each year, records are set. There seems to be no limit to what humans can ultimately accomplish.

    Just my $.02.

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    Originally posted by Mathman
    Both Michelle at 15 and Tara at 15 were super little jumping beans. But I don't think that either one of them added much to their jump reportoire after age 17 or so. .....All of these Japanese girls are 16 or younger. ...So it seems to be a natural progression that young ladies jump, jump, jump as juniors; then as they reach physical and artistic maturity, other aspects of their skating come to the fore.
    Tara's hip injury, caused by excessive practice of the 3L/3L, resulted in her regressing her jumps little by little until towards the end of her stint with SOI, she could land little more than 3S and 2A.

    Yes, the Japanese girls doing these feats are all 16 or younger, and all are tiny. What happens to them when they reach physical maturity is another question. It's also interesting that many of them have problems with the 3Z. As they mature, the quads and 3/3/3s (yes!) may become more and more difficult and perhaps even impossible to do, while the technique for plain triples is not up to standard.

    Many of these questions may be answered when Miki Ando joins the ranks of the Senior ladies next season.

  8. #8
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I don't like to see the damage to these talented people. But also, I don't like what quads do to the programs. To judge by the men, when quads are included, the section of program before and after the quad become featureless jump stalking where a crossover or a 3 turn entry is the most you will see.

    So I while I like the WOW factor of all this high flying, I would certainly settle for a Zayak type rule of no more than 2 quads per program, and they have to be different quads. In combo or not, no difference.

    Doris

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    I'm with you on this one....I have no desire to see a whole slew of ladies try to do the quad. It has been proven physically unwise for the women to basically "overjump" themselves while still physically immature. It leads to numerous injury problems later. I find most of them have enough trouble doing all the required triples at this time. Triple/triple combos are mostly non-existant and quite frankly I don't miss them. Heck, incorporating two 3-lutzes seems to still be a struggle for most. I think the ladies are now concentrating on improving their programs as a whole, and having good skill levels on ALL elements, something that is sadly lacking when skaters concentrate overly on jumping. Now we're starting to see some great spinning, beautiful spirals, good footwork, and intricate choreography. This is the direction in which I hope skating continues to grow. COP seems to encourage this.


    Even in the men's I'm noticing far less emphasis on cramming up to four quads into a program at the expense of everything else. Several of the GP events have been won with programs containing no quads at all. Give me combinations of moves, difficult entries into jumps etc. Far more interesting.

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    I would think skaters that are having trouble doing triples would just want to throw the towel in and feel lost as they are hearing this. I know I would.

  11. #11
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    Quads....

    I'm sure people would regard me as an old fuddy, duddy but I honestly feel that the quest for quads has badly damaged figureskating. Not just the quad but the triple/triples for the ladies. Pushing the envelope has seriously physically damaged so many skaters to the point of surgery or worse.

    Where will it all stop?

    Perhaps a limit on quads and triples in each program is needed.

    Dizzy
    Last edited by dizzydi; 12-01-2003 at 05:37 PM.

  12. #12
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Athletes will contimually push the envelope. It is inevitable. In ten years or so we'll be talking about how punishing the "pent" or "hex" is on skaters.

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    Originally posted by DJStuCrew
    Athletes will contimually push the envelope. It is inevitable. In ten years or so we'll be talking about how punishing the "pent" or "hex" is on skaters.
    The only problem is that there will be only 5 or 6 international skaters able to compete at any given time. The rest will be either recuperating from injuries or having joint replacements. Worlds will have to be held every other year because there won't be enough skaters to make the competition meaningful.

  14. #14
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Really? Did that happen when the triple came along?

    IMO, it's not the jump causeing the injury, but the training method. Weight lifters don't start at the top, but slowly build up to a point where they can attempt the record. A skater having trouble landing consistent triples should not just plow ahead to the quad. They must be at the point where the triple isn't a challenge anymore. (And yes, this will ultimately limit how many skaters can do the jump at all.)

    Injuries can and will happen -- heck, you can mess yourself up pretty good falling on a spin! -- but skaters can and will continue to push the envelope. Should we encourage or prohibit it? I think that should ultimately be left up to the skater.

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