Men's Free Skate - 12/11 | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Skate - 12/11

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
but I've got to the point that I've seen so many boring, dull, and soulless paint-by-numbers programs that I can't help but sit back and enjoy a skater that at least tries to be halfway engaging and remembers that an audience is watching him.

i think that 's part of the reason I cant get the difference in pcs between Kozu and Chan,and I dont hate Chan. I can watch his feet all day, but so can I for Kozu. Kozu reminds me of Lambiel in his early years, has a shyness and is introverted. I never llked Joubert but seeing him live was different and I saw why he was at the top for so long, he is totally born to skate in front of audience.And Abott is not a crowd pleaser for sure but he has the best Lp of the season for me and invites you in to watch the story. Probably my thing with Chan is that for the 3rd season now I havent been able to understand which category he belongs, he doesnt generate any negative feelings when I watch him like with with few other skaters that i dont like, the contrary, he is high quality and I watch a nearly perfect skate at GPF with a great quad and he looks down- up-left right I dont know, but like theres not an audience around, it was like I was watching a great practice. By the way his spins have been greatly improved this season.. I m probably missing something that others dont but it is good to be able to say it here without being considered a hater or being mocked cause l like Plush by the elite fans, everybody has sentimental favorites, this is figure skating.
Some pages ago I said I will join you in the goat party heading to worlds, I want Dai to win worlds in his home arena. :)

I think for Russia, Konstantin Menshov might be sent with Arthur Gatchinski. He has a quad in his arsenal and is quite a good jumper when he's "on". Although if Voronov is recovered from his injury in time for Russian nats and skates there he will probably go with Arthur.
did you know Menshov is 28 years old? I didnt know and I was wondering where he was hidden especially after 2006, he looked in very good form. Arthur programs are strange and judges dont like them much, but has the jumps for sure. Its time he has his own spotlight, all the hype since he was 10 did him no good. I feel bad for Borodulin, he was too good last year and crowd liked him.
I didnt know Brezina skated again but this is an unlucky season, after last Euros I Iwas sure he would medal in the next ones. Maybe France will send the other french guy from Teb who was pretty good, prefered him than Preubert.
 
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callalily

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2005
^ Re: Chan's engagement with an audience and PCS overall...one thing I'll say, having watched him live, is that he skates with a great deal of energy, speed and abandon...total commitment, really, which gives him great command of the ice and presence in person. On TV or the internet that doesn't really come across.

Having said that, I'd agree that he could improve his connection with the audience, and hopefully he will as he matures. There's so much difficulty in his programs, though, and the transitions, etc. just keep coming, so it might be hard for him to take his focus off the technical content.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Contesti skated well in the LP of his second GP (what was it, Russia? the memories of them seem to blend into one for me lol). Is it just me or has he lost quite a bit of weight this season? It could just be his costume, but he looked 10-15 lbs lighter.

Yeah at COR I believe he had the highest TES in the FS where he scored 141+, which is a pretty good score that should put him in the medal mix for Euros. The reason he didn't place better at his GP events though was because he bombed his SPs at both events. If he can do a clean SP and skate a FS like he has been skating all season, he should have a good shot. I agree he looks to have lost a lot of weight, although I don't know the cause. Perhaps he was sick? He's been looking a bit pale and gaunt this season.

I just watched the men's FS again. Amodio was a little underscored I think, Verner too. I love Verner's haircut and his triple axels looked much bigger and better than I remember them being. His step sequences seemed a little slow though. Dai also seemed slower than usual to me, and he really needs to sort his spins out. Jumps were a bit of a letdown. Kozuka was pretty good apart from a few too many swingy landings, Oda was technically strong but his program is a bit too boring for me. Chan was excellent but I still thought his score was a little too high, I thought Kozuka's FS from TEB was better than the one Chan put out here.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
i think that 's part of the reason I cant get the difference in pcs between Kozu and Chan,and I dont hate Chan. I can watch his feet all day, but so can I for Kozu. Kozu reminds me of Lambiel in his early years, has a shyness and is introverted. I never llked Joubert but seeing him live was different and I saw why he was at the top for so long, he is totally born to skate in front of audience.And Abott is not a crowd pleaser for sure but he has the best Lp of the season for me and invites you in to watch the story. Probably my thing with Chan is that for the 3rd season now I havent been able to understand which category he belongs, he doesnt generate any negative feelings when I watch him like with with few other skaters that i dont like, the contrary, he is high quality and I watch a nearly perfect skate at GPF with a great quad and he looks down- up-left right I dont know, but like theres not an audience around, it was like I was watching a great practice. By the way his spins have been greatly improved this season.. I m probably missing something that others dont but it is good to be able to say it here without being considered a hater or being mocked cause l like Plush by the elite fans, everybody has sentimental favorites, this is figure skating.
Some pages ago I said I will join you in the goat party heading to worlds, I want Dai to win worlds in his home arena. :)

did you know Menshov is 28 years old? I didnt know and I was wondering where he was hidden especially after 2006, he looked in very good form. Arthur programs are strange and judges dont like them much, but has the jumps for sure. Its time he has his own spotlight, all the hype since he was 10 did him no good. I feel bad for Borodulin, he was too good last year and crowd liked him.
I didnt know Brezina skated again but this is an unlucky season, after last Euros I Iwas sure he would medal in the next ones. Maybe France will send the other french guy from Teb who was pretty good, prefered him than Preubert.

I agree about Kozuka, at his best he is better than Chan, IMO. But maybe once Oda or Takahashi retires he will get more recognition, right now he's still considered the 3rd best Japanese male skater even though he's been skating better than both his teammates this season.

Menshov I knew was fairly old but I think his problem has always been bombing the FS, his score in the SP at COR was quite good but then the FS was so low. The same thing happened to Chafik at TEB. I agree he is promising but I think Preaubert will probably go to Euros unless Chafik can deliver a good FS at nats.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The other thing is that Brezina skated a very poor SP at GoldenSpin so it seems like his recovery is going slow so he likely won't be at his best at Euros, although even not at his best he probably has a good shot to medal. Also Czech nationals are in a week so Verner can probably win that unless Michal can bounce back to his form from last season over the course of a week, which seems like too much to ask for, and so that should also help his confidence for Euros. I think at Euros it will be Verner, Amodio, and Joubert (and Brezina if he is skating like his old self by then) fighting for gold and then Contesti, KVDP, Gatchinski and Preaubert fighting for a medal should the frontrunners falter.
Thank you Silverlake for your info on Michal - my current favorite in the Men's Division. It sounds horrible that his injury is not healing all that quickly. I really missed him at the GPs.

I think every Euro Fed can send anyone they choose to the Worlds regardless of the Euros Results. The Czech Republic only can send one, and that will be Tomas. Better than sending an injured skater. I like Tomas, too., but I prefer Michal.
 

sunny0760

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
^ Re: Chan's engagement with an audience and PCS overall...one thing I'll say, having watched him live, is that he skates with a great deal of energy, speed and abandon...total commitment, really, which gives him great command of the ice and presence in person. On TV or the internet that doesn't really come across.

Having said that, I'd agree that he could improve his connection with the audience, and hopefully he will as he matures. There's so much difficulty in his programs, though, and the transitions, etc. just keep coming, so it might be hard for him to take his focus off the technical content.

Thank you for the input, callalily. Well rounded opinion.:)
I am glad to see Chan win for the first time at GPF.:thumbsup:
I don't think he is a natural performer but he might develop some performance skills with less demanding, more beautiful, music related programs.
Want to see him do ones which are NOT Lori.

Congratulations, Patrick!!! Great, great movements on ice!
 

sunny0760

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
I have been thinking about Takahashi. He stated he wanted to be the first skater who succeeded in 4F in competition right before the LP. I think he's tried this kind of jump before, never rotated.
If he can do 4T or 4T-something, why does he not go for 4T instead of 4F? Can he do 4F in practice?

IMO, comparing his pre-injury days, he shows more comanding presence but less stamina overall, which concerns me a little.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Thank you Silverlake for your info on Michal - my current favorite in the Men's Division. It sounds horrible that his injury is not healing all that quickly. I really missed him at the GPs.

I think every Euro Fed can send anyone they choose to the Worlds regardless of the Euros Results. The Czech Republic only can send one, and that will be Tomas. Better than sending an injured skater. I like Tomas, too., but I prefer Michal.

Czech republic has 2 spots at Worlds thanks to Michal's 4th place finish last season. I'm confused. Oh wait, Euros. Well at least I think this is the last time Czech Republic only has 1 spot for the men. I would imagine Tomas will go though, just considering Brezina's current condition. At least Brezina will get to compete at Worlds and by then he will have time to rebound.

Also Michal's total score was 183.64 at Golden Spin.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Congratulaltions to Patrick Chan! To think my voodoo didn't even involve goat sacrifices! In fact, no animals have been harmed in the making of Patrick Chan's victory.

I don't know how hurt Daisuke is but he has lacked energy this season, right from the beginning. His explanation for his poor performance is fatigue and exhaustion so I hope he looks after his health and that the low energy is only a matter of training.

Patrick Chan's win without falls surely takes a lot of fun out of the fandom, eh? People are reduced to just grumbling about him being overscored, specifically in the P/E component, which actually comprises only about 10% of the total scores. What? No outcry about a 2-fall Oda beating the no-fall Kozuka? Or a 2-fall Takahashi placing higher than Verner and Amodio? Where is the disgust over the distinct possibility of a 2-fall winner of a major competition if Chan had bombed, withdrawn or never qualified to begin with?

There was some solace in a brave judge giving just scores to Chan so I looked up the judges' marks - GOE(TES) + PCS in Mens FS:

.......Chan.......Kozuka.........Oda.......Verner.....Amodio....Takahashi

J1..6+38.25....11+39.00...11+41.25....7+36.25...8+36.75...-3+39.50
J2..17+45.00...10+36.75....6+39.75....9+39.00....9+32.75.....1+36.75
J3..11+44.00...7+37.00.....2+37.75.....5+36.75....11+36.25...0+42.50
J4..14+44.75...2+37.75.....5+39.25....10+35.75....2+38.75....2*+43.75
J5..22+41.75...9+41.50....13+41.00....12+35.75...9+36.00....-5+42.25
J6..10+42.50...17+37.75....3+37.50...17+37.50....6+36.00....-4+39.25
J7..16+42.75...9+40.00.....0+37.00....10+37.00....4+31.25.....2+43.75
J8..11+43.75...7+37.75.....4+41.25....8+35.50.....4+34.50....-1+35.75
J9..17+45.50..16+42.75....7+39.00....7+39.75.....8+35.00....-5+39.75

*Judge4 gave +3 GOE to Dai's ChSt1 which Dai himself is disappointed in.

The Honorable Judge Number One is obviously the Hero, whom I shall adress as a third person masculine. Truly out-of-corridor scores for Patrick. In fact, he's the only one to give the lowest marks in both TES and PCS to a single skater. Judge5 gave the highest TES to Patrick but not the highest PCS and he is generally generous to other skaters as well. Not our Judge1, who is stingy only with Patrick Chan.

Let's compare how Judge1 scored the no-fall champion and the last placed Florent Amodio. Patrick's PCS is only 1.5 points over Florent's but his GOEs by Judge1 is 2 points lower than Florent's! So he's scored lower than Florent net! And remember ChSt1, the step sequence deemed level 1 for everybody? The over 30 seconds of deep edged fast turns and flying all over the rink that Patrick did to bring his program to a climatic end? He got 1 GOE point for his effort from Judge1 whereas Florent recieved 2 points for all his posing, glaring and thrusting with great musicality.

There you go. Along with 8 corrupted colluding judges, there's one to be gleeful for. Some of you need to sacrifice more goats to get more hero judges like Judge1 so the system can be saved, or more importantly, Patrick Chan may be bannished.

Eta: Sorry. I tried to make neat figures but to no avail, even if they looked fine when I wrote them.
 
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Nena

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
I have been thinking about Takahashi. He stated he wanted to be the first skater who succeeded in 4F in competition right before the LP. I think he's tried this kind of jump before, never rotated.
If he can do 4T or 4T-something, why does he not go for 4T instead of 4F? Can he do 4F in practice?

IMO, comparing his pre-injury days, he shows more comanding presence but less stamina overall, which concerns me a little.

Because he hasn't been landing the 4T at all in practice but just two-foots the 4F. That's the same reason why he went for the 4F at Worlds. He just got lucky at Japan Open and NHK since he hadn't been landing the 4T in practice then either. He doesn't really have his quad back. And it seems like he really was hurt in the collision after all.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Patrick Chan's win without falls surely takes a lot of fun out of the fandom, eh? People are reduced to just grumbling about him being overscored, specifically in the P/E component, which actually comprises only about 10% of the total scores. What? No outcry about a 2-fall Oda beating the no-fall Kozuka? Or a 2-fall Takahashi placing higher than Verner and Amodio? Where is the disgust over the distinct possibility of a 2-fall winner of a major competition if Chan had bombed, withdrawn or never qualified to begin with?

No need to be so condescending...2-fall Oda did not beat no-fall Kozuka in the LP; Oda only finished above Kozuka overall because of his very strong SP. And 2-fall Daisuke finished dead last in the LP--Verner and Amodio both made the major mistake of popping their 3As in the SP, if you've forgotten, and that was what did them in.

There was some solace in a brave judge giving just scores to Chan so I looked up the judges' marks - GOE(TES) + PCS in Mens FS:

.......Chan.......Kozuka.........Oda.......Verner.....Amodio....Takahashi

J1..6+38.25....11+39.00...11+41.25....7+36.25...8+36.75...-3+39.50
J2..17+45.00...10+36.75....6+39.75....9+39.00....9+32.75.....1+36.75
J3..11+44.00...7+37.00.....2+37.75.....5+36.75....11+36.25...0+42.50
J4..14+44.75...2+37.75.....5+39.25....10+35.75....2+38.75....2*+43.75
J5..22+41.75...9+41.50....13+41.00....12+35.75...9+36.00....-5+42.25
J6..10+42.50...17+37.75....3+37.50...17+37.50....6+36.00....-4+39.25
J7..16+42.75...9+40.00.....0+37.00....10+37.00....4+31.25.....2+43.75
J8..11+43.75...7+37.75.....4+41.25....8+35.50.....4+34.50....-1+35.75
J9..17+45.50..16+42.75....7+39.00....7+39.75.....8+35.00....-5+39.75

*Judge4 gave +3 GOE to Dai's ChSt1 which Dai himself is disappointed in.

The Honorable Judge Number One is obviously the Hero, whom I shall adress as a third person masculine. Truly out-of-corridor scores for Patrick. In fact, he's the only one to give the lowest marks in both TES and PCS to a single skater. Judge5 gave the highest TES to Patrick but not the highest PCS and he is generally generous to other skaters as well. Not our Judge1, who is stingy only with Patrick Chan.

Let's compare how Judge1 scored the no-fall champion and the last placed Florent Amodio. Patrick's PCS is only 1.5 points over Florent's but his GOEs by Judge1 is 2 points lower than Florent's! So he's scored lower than Florent net! And remember ChSt1, the step sequence deemed level 1 for everybody? The over 30 seconds of deep edged fast turns and flying all over the rink that Patrick did to bring his program to a climatic end? He got 1 GOE point for his effort from Judge1 whereas Florent recieved 2 points for all his posing, glaring and thrusting with great musicality.

There you go. Along with 8 corrupted colluding judges, there's one to be gleeful for. Some of you need to sacrifice more goats to get more hero judges like Judge1 so the system can be saved, or more importantly, Patrick Chan may be bannished.

Eta: Sorry. I tried to make neat figures but to no avail, even if they looked fine when I wrote them.

And I assume by the goat references, you were referring to me regarding Judge No. 1. When did I ever say he/she was fair? When I said that judge no. 1 "had balls," I meant in the Vanessa Riley* sense--i.e. completely going outside the corridor when judging and producing a completely bizarre result. I actually disagree with Judge no. 1 giving 7s to Patrick, especially in SS and TR--I have said this before and I will say again: no matter how much I disagree with Patrick's IN and PE marks, I admit that he deserves high 8s and/or 9s in SS and TR.



*I think Vanessa is a laugh riot, but the only times I've really agreed with her crazy marking was whenever Surya Bonaly was up on the chopping block. Fadeev wuzrobbed at 1989 Euros! :laugh:
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
evangeline, you've repeatedly labelled discussions with those who defend Chan's scores per the system as condescending. Keeping in mind that we operate in an environment where people complain when he skates well (which admittedly is amusing to me), how do we debate? Your reponse to SkateFiguring seems to be the exact same one people have been trying to give - looking at the rules and rendering an explanation. If he does it with a sense of irony, well, we've seen Chan get beat up pretty brutally on the internet (lest we forget there were 20 pages of Chan hate during Skate Canada).

I'm willing to wager at Worlds if Chan skates well and posts a high score, you'll hear the same "I can't believe that's a record" score despite the fact that there are a number of reasons outside Chan's/judges control that contribute to that (like the higher base value for elements). It's the internet, so conviction in ignorance is nothing new (and this isn't directed at you at all), but it's still frustrating nonetheless, and humour is one way to oppose it.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I think every Euro Fed can send anyone they choose to the Worlds regardless of the Euros Results. The Czech Republic only can send one, and that will be Tomas. Better than sending an injured skater. I like Tomas, too., but I prefer Michal.

Just checked the math and Czech Republic has 2 spots for Euros and Worlds. Every skater that doesn't make the FS gets 18 points (Pavel at Worlds last season) so then add Michal's 4 to that and you get 22, and to get 2 spots at Worlds you need under 28 points. That's right, yes? One man might have to skate in the qualifying round, but I'm pretty sure 2 get to go.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
evangeline, I didn't mean to offend or target you. So much Chan bashing has just kind of melded together and I was amusing myself with observation of reactions to good results from Chan. Didn't recall who was doing goat sacrifices though it's funny. My "voodoo" is a little secret joke with myself.

It's weekend and I like doing and seeing things in numbers. There has been a lot of condemnation of the scoring corridor but when I organized the scores today, I found there were good reasons for the corridor. Marking differently is not forbidden or automatically wrong but it does merit some examinations. It's the same way governements pick who to audit by seeing what stands out from the norm.

I tried to see if there really was unfair scoring for Patrick but found instead unfair scoring against him. Always interesting to actually look at facts and numbers.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
How many quads in competition has Patrick Chan attempted this season so far? 6 in 6 programs in 3 competitions. How many quads has he successfully done? 4 including one in combination. Impressive in deed! Patrick Chan is a trooper! Besides his quads, I've found that his spins are very good too. Not as fast , but as well centered as Lambiel's. When he raised his hands in the air during spinning, it looks great! I still disliked his hands though. Overscored or not, happy for him to win the GPF.
 
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pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I actually had no problem with any of the scoring of the mens event at the GP final. What a surprising relief after the ghastly scoring especialy for Patrick Chan throughout the GP which was a complete embarassment to the already fading in popularity sport. However this time they scored both programs pretty much exactly right.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
As for Chan being overscored or not here, who cares he was still much better than anyone else. I agree his score was too much but he deserved to be far above Oda or Kozuka's performances. The problem is in when he gets placings he clearly doesnt deserve (Skate Canada) or is very close to one he clearly doesnt deserve (Russia). He is still probably the most overscored skater in history but when he clearly beats his competitors then it becomes a moot point.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Thank you Silverlake for your info on Michal - my current favorite in the Men's Division. It sounds horrible that his injury is not healing all that quickly. I really missed him at the GPs.

I think every Euro Fed can send anyone they choose to the Worlds regardless of the Euros Results. The Czech Republic only can send one, and that will be Tomas. Better than sending an injured skater. I like Tomas, too., but I prefer Michal.

No, Czech republic has two spots for Europeans 2011.They earned it from Euros 2010 according to qualification rules. Brezina and Tomas placements last year = 14
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
As for Chan being overscored or not here, who cares he was still much better than anyone else. I agree his score was too much but he deserved to be far above Oda or Kozuka's performances. The problem is in when he gets placings he clearly doesnt deserve (Skate Canada) or is very close to one he clearly doesnt deserve (Russia). He is still probably the most overscored skater in history but when he clearly beats his competitors then it becomes a moot point.

I agree with you. Patrick finally delivered 2 performances that he and his fans can be proud of, and I am very happy for him that he achieved that finally! This is the first time that I have enjoyed him this season. IF he skates like this or better and wins at Worlds, then I will be very happy for him there too.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I agree with you. Patrick finally delivered 2 performances that he and his fans can be proud of, and I am very happy for him that he achieved that finally! This is the first time that I have enjoyed him this season. IF he skates like this or better and wins at Worlds, then I will be very happy for him there too.

Exactly. When he skates this well he deserves to win. And other than a 100% Takahashi there isnt anyone who can really beat him when he skates that well anyway. And he is certainly superior to Lysacek, the winner of the biggest events the last 2 years, when he skates well, especialy now with a quad. That wont stop those of us who want fairness in the sport the times he falls 6 times and wins an event though.
 
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