Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 190

Thread: Men's Free Skate - 12/11

  1. #76
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    161
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    A lot of people seem really frustrated by the fact that Chan's posted near record breaking scores. I thought it was worth mentioning that...

    1. Quad toes are now worth 1.3 points MORE than they were when Takahashi posted his score.
    2. Triple Axels are worth 1 point more.
    3. That despite the loss of the level-step sequence, the raising of GOE's for the choreographed step sequence means that it's potentially a HUGE points earner, regardless.

    So Chan's working with about a five point advantage. Then mention the fact that judges are clearly more comfortable operating within the higher regions of the PCS (three teams scoring tens last year) and the general fact that points trend upwards in general, this skate would probably be a good 8-10 points behind Takahashi's were they compared on the same system/playing field.
    Excellent points. You can't directly compare scores year-to-year, for these very reasons.

    Due to a combination of factors, Chan is not particularly popular on Internet skating boards, so even though he skated well at the GPF he has many critics and few defenders. What discourages me though, is when certain knowledgeable posters (who know the scoring system very well and know that point values have changed) make attempts to directly compare his scores to those of previous years, rolling their eyes in the process. Those particular people know better and clearly just want to bash him...and it works, because others who don't know the system as well go along for the ride. (Just to clarify, I am NOT talking about anyone here; I noticed this on another board.)

    I am not the biggest Chan fan (there are others I prefer) but I can't get over the schoolyard bullying mentality that has set in. A few influential posters set the stage and the mob grows. Very discouraging, especially since some of this is based on perceptions of personality, not actual skating.

  2. #77
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,198
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    I wish there was a signature option again, I would put this in mine right away, voila.take a goat for this. First thing my sister-who is more casual viewer- noticed once is that fs audience is rather snobbish comparing to the gymnastics one.Mocking someone for his preferences in a sport is far from sophisticated attitude in my book.
    I watched the vids again on youtube, Dai is Mr Personality for me, and demands attention like none. Falls and all, he is unique, I dont feel he is checking the boxes just. Kozuka is just a joy to watch, he skates free and he is so special in the way he moves. I also enjoned Amodio's Lp, while it is nothing like last season the boy has presence and flies there. He is my fav to win euros. I probably enjoy his skating cause Iam shallow and uneducuted by the einstein's standars of posters here.
    I want to see the scientifc survey for the idiocity that has been implied here many times that female audience in figure skating is satisfied with pelevic thrusts and all that, and appreciates skates like Dai's or Joubs sp for example for this reason and their programs are worthy to collect the girl audience screams, and male audience are all for the rachmaninofs and gershwins.
    Thank you! That goat was sorely needed...I'm only a poor student and my goat-purchasing budget is sorely strained from buying all those zebras to sacrifice for Lambiel last season.

    Regarding your point about skating snobbery: to be honest, I used to be very snobbish about crowd-pleasing skaters like Joubert too (less so here, more on another forum) and I guess I still can be to some extent but I've got to the point that I've seen so many boring, dull, and soulless paint-by-numbers programs that I can't help but sit back and enjoy a skater that at least tries to be halfway engaging and remembers that an audience is watching him.

    Take Amodio for example. Yes, Amodio does a lot of posing and crowd-pandering movements in his routine. Yes, people scream like banshees during his LP. But so what? It's truly entertaining, and I can say with certainty that not all skaters can emote and move the way Amodio does. It'll be nice if he incorporates more of his choreography while he's skating--but he is nevertheless interpreting the music very well. You don't have to be a screaming, hormonal teenage girl to appreciate and enjoy what Amodio does.




    ...but I think Tomas Verner will win Euros. Amodio will podium, however.

  3. #78
    The Future Mrs. Evan Lysacek #1Kerryfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Cleveland Heights, Ohio
    Posts
    594
    What is up with all the hating on Chan here?

  4. #79
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas, United States
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post


    I agree. And I think it is a good thing their GPF participation and it only adds, they had a decent skate against the top of world right now that is Chan, Oda, Dai and Kozuka. I mean these 4 skaters it was clear in Gp series they are the frontrunners. I think also VErner might win euros this year. And Amodio seems more consistent under Morozov coaching, he has done huge steps in that aspect since last season, and the whole touring in the off season did miracles to his confidence, and judges seem to like him, he is a crowd favorite also, I m sure at Euros he will rock the arena. Besides the whole field is not so deep, apart from Joubert, Brezina, Tomas and Amodio it is only Fernandez and Schults, I dont think Contesti, KVDP and Brentsson are contenders for podium unless there is a massive bombing. And i dont know who Russia will sent, I guess Arthur and who else? Voronov or Borodulin health issues I dont know them.
    I think for Russia, Konstantin Menshov might be sent with Arthur Gatchinski. He has a quad in his arsenal and is quite a good jumper when he's "on". Although if Voronov is recovered from his injury in time for Russian nats and skates there he will probably go with Arthur.

    The other thing is that Brezina skated a very poor SP at GoldenSpin so it seems like his recovery is going slow so he likely won't be at his best at Euros, although even not at his best he probably has a good shot to medal. Also Czech nationals are in a week so Verner can probably win that unless Michal can bounce back to his form from last season over the course of a week, which seems like too much to ask for, and so that should also help his confidence for Euros. I think at Euros it will be Verner, Amodio, and Joubert (and Brezina if he is skating like his old self by then) fighting for gold and then Contesti, KVDP, Gatchinski and Preaubert fighting for a medal should the frontrunners falter.

  5. #80
    - * - blue_idealist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,771
    Contesti skated well in the LP of his second GP (what was it, Russia? the memories of them seem to blend into one for me lol). Is it just me or has he lost quite a bit of weight this season? It could just be his costume, but he looked 10-15 lbs lighter.

  6. #81
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,579
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    but I've got to the point that I've seen so many boring, dull, and soulless paint-by-numbers programs that I can't help but sit back and enjoy a skater that at least tries to be halfway engaging and remembers that an audience is watching him.
    i think that 's part of the reason I cant get the difference in pcs between Kozu and Chan,and I dont hate Chan. I can watch his feet all day, but so can I for Kozu. Kozu reminds me of Lambiel in his early years, has a shyness and is introverted. I never llked Joubert but seeing him live was different and I saw why he was at the top for so long, he is totally born to skate in front of audience.And Abott is not a crowd pleaser for sure but he has the best Lp of the season for me and invites you in to watch the story. Probably my thing with Chan is that for the 3rd season now I havent been able to understand which category he belongs, he doesnt generate any negative feelings when I watch him like with with few other skaters that i dont like, the contrary, he is high quality and I watch a nearly perfect skate at GPF with a great quad and he looks down- up-left right I dont know, but like theres not an audience around, it was like I was watching a great practice. By the way his spins have been greatly improved this season.. I m probably missing something that others dont but it is good to be able to say it here without being considered a hater or being mocked cause l like Plush by the elite fans, everybody has sentimental favorites, this is figure skating.
    Some pages ago I said I will join you in the goat party heading to worlds, I want Dai to win worlds in his home arena.

    I think for Russia, Konstantin Menshov might be sent with Arthur Gatchinski. He has a quad in his arsenal and is quite a good jumper when he's "on". Although if Voronov is recovered from his injury in time for Russian nats and skates there he will probably go with Arthur.
    did you know Menshov is 28 years old? I didnt know and I was wondering where he was hidden especially after 2006, he looked in very good form. Arthur programs are strange and judges dont like them much, but has the jumps for sure. Its time he has his own spotlight, all the hype since he was 10 did him no good. I feel bad for Borodulin, he was too good last year and crowd liked him.
    I didnt know Brezina skated again but this is an unlucky season, after last Euros I Iwas sure he would medal in the next ones. Maybe France will send the other french guy from Teb who was pretty good, prefered him than Preubert.
    Last edited by seniorita; 12-11-2010 at 06:38 PM.

  7. #82
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    161
    ^ Re: Chan's engagement with an audience and PCS overall...one thing I'll say, having watched him live, is that he skates with a great deal of energy, speed and abandon...total commitment, really, which gives him great command of the ice and presence in person. On TV or the internet that doesn't really come across.

    Having said that, I'd agree that he could improve his connection with the audience, and hopefully he will as he matures. There's so much difficulty in his programs, though, and the transitions, etc. just keep coming, so it might be hard for him to take his focus off the technical content.
    Last edited by callalily; 12-11-2010 at 06:59 PM.

  8. #83
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas, United States
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    Contesti skated well in the LP of his second GP (what was it, Russia? the memories of them seem to blend into one for me lol). Is it just me or has he lost quite a bit of weight this season? It could just be his costume, but he looked 10-15 lbs lighter.
    Yeah at COR I believe he had the highest TES in the FS where he scored 141+, which is a pretty good score that should put him in the medal mix for Euros. The reason he didn't place better at his GP events though was because he bombed his SPs at both events. If he can do a clean SP and skate a FS like he has been skating all season, he should have a good shot. I agree he looks to have lost a lot of weight, although I don't know the cause. Perhaps he was sick? He's been looking a bit pale and gaunt this season.

    I just watched the men's FS again. Amodio was a little underscored I think, Verner too. I love Verner's haircut and his triple axels looked much bigger and better than I remember them being. His step sequences seemed a little slow though. Dai also seemed slower than usual to me, and he really needs to sort his spins out. Jumps were a bit of a letdown. Kozuka was pretty good apart from a few too many swingy landings, Oda was technically strong but his program is a bit too boring for me. Chan was excellent but I still thought his score was a little too high, I thought Kozuka's FS from TEB was better than the one Chan put out here.

  9. #84
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas, United States
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    i think that 's part of the reason I cant get the difference in pcs between Kozu and Chan,and I dont hate Chan. I can watch his feet all day, but so can I for Kozu. Kozu reminds me of Lambiel in his early years, has a shyness and is introverted. I never llked Joubert but seeing him live was different and I saw why he was at the top for so long, he is totally born to skate in front of audience.And Abott is not a crowd pleaser for sure but he has the best Lp of the season for me and invites you in to watch the story. Probably my thing with Chan is that for the 3rd season now I havent been able to understand which category he belongs, he doesnt generate any negative feelings when I watch him like with with few other skaters that i dont like, the contrary, he is high quality and I watch a nearly perfect skate at GPF with a great quad and he looks down- up-left right I dont know, but like theres not an audience around, it was like I was watching a great practice. By the way his spins have been greatly improved this season.. I m probably missing something that others dont but it is good to be able to say it here without being considered a hater or being mocked cause l like Plush by the elite fans, everybody has sentimental favorites, this is figure skating.
    Some pages ago I said I will join you in the goat party heading to worlds, I want Dai to win worlds in his home arena.

    did you know Menshov is 28 years old? I didnt know and I was wondering where he was hidden especially after 2006, he looked in very good form. Arthur programs are strange and judges dont like them much, but has the jumps for sure. Its time he has his own spotlight, all the hype since he was 10 did him no good. I feel bad for Borodulin, he was too good last year and crowd liked him.
    I didnt know Brezina skated again but this is an unlucky season, after last Euros I Iwas sure he would medal in the next ones. Maybe France will send the other french guy from Teb who was pretty good, prefered him than Preubert.
    I agree about Kozuka, at his best he is better than Chan, IMO. But maybe once Oda or Takahashi retires he will get more recognition, right now he's still considered the 3rd best Japanese male skater even though he's been skating better than both his teammates this season.

    Menshov I knew was fairly old but I think his problem has always been bombing the FS, his score in the SP at COR was quite good but then the FS was so low. The same thing happened to Chafik at TEB. I agree he is promising but I think Preaubert will probably go to Euros unless Chafik can deliver a good FS at nats.

  10. #85
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    The other thing is that Brezina skated a very poor SP at GoldenSpin so it seems like his recovery is going slow so he likely won't be at his best at Euros, although even not at his best he probably has a good shot to medal. Also Czech nationals are in a week so Verner can probably win that unless Michal can bounce back to his form from last season over the course of a week, which seems like too much to ask for, and so that should also help his confidence for Euros. I think at Euros it will be Verner, Amodio, and Joubert (and Brezina if he is skating like his old self by then) fighting for gold and then Contesti, KVDP, Gatchinski and Preaubert fighting for a medal should the frontrunners falter.
    Thank you Silverlake for your info on Michal - my current favorite in the Men's Division. It sounds horrible that his injury is not healing all that quickly. I really missed him at the GPs.

    I think every Euro Fed can send anyone they choose to the Worlds regardless of the Euros Results. The Czech Republic only can send one, and that will be Tomas. Better than sending an injured skater. I like Tomas, too., but I prefer Michal.

  11. #86
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Seoul, Korea
    Posts
    262
    Quote Originally Posted by callalily View Post
    ^ Re: Chan's engagement with an audience and PCS overall...one thing I'll say, having watched him live, is that he skates with a great deal of energy, speed and abandon...total commitment, really, which gives him great command of the ice and presence in person. On TV or the internet that doesn't really come across.

    Having said that, I'd agree that he could improve his connection with the audience, and hopefully he will as he matures. There's so much difficulty in his programs, though, and the transitions, etc. just keep coming, so it might be hard for him to take his focus off the technical content.
    Thank you for the input, callalily. Well rounded opinion.
    I am glad to see Chan win for the first time at GPF.
    I don't think he is a natural performer but he might develop some performance skills with less demanding, more beautiful, music related programs.
    Want to see him do ones which are NOT Lori.

    Congratulations, Patrick!!! Great, great movements on ice!

  12. #87
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Seoul, Korea
    Posts
    262
    I have been thinking about Takahashi. He stated he wanted to be the first skater who succeeded in 4F in competition right before the LP. I think he's tried this kind of jump before, never rotated.
    If he can do 4T or 4T-something, why does he not go for 4T instead of 4F? Can he do 4F in practice?

    IMO, comparing his pre-injury days, he shows more comanding presence but less stamina overall, which concerns me a little.

  13. #88
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Texas, United States
    Posts
    4,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Thank you Silverlake for your info on Michal - my current favorite in the Men's Division. It sounds horrible that his injury is not healing all that quickly. I really missed him at the GPs.

    I think every Euro Fed can send anyone they choose to the Worlds regardless of the Euros Results. The Czech Republic only can send one, and that will be Tomas. Better than sending an injured skater. I like Tomas, too., but I prefer Michal.
    Czech republic has 2 spots at Worlds thanks to Michal's 4th place finish last season. I'm confused. Oh wait, Euros. Well at least I think this is the last time Czech Republic only has 1 spot for the men. I would imagine Tomas will go though, just considering Brezina's current condition. At least Brezina will get to compete at Worlds and by then he will have time to rebound.

    Also Michal's total score was 183.64 at Golden Spin.

  14. #89
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,499
    Congratulaltions to Patrick Chan! To think my voodoo didn't even involve goat sacrifices! In fact, no animals have been harmed in the making of Patrick Chan's victory.

    I don't know how hurt Daisuke is but he has lacked energy this season, right from the beginning. His explanation for his poor performance is fatigue and exhaustion so I hope he looks after his health and that the low energy is only a matter of training.

    Patrick Chan's win without falls surely takes a lot of fun out of the fandom, eh? People are reduced to just grumbling about him being overscored, specifically in the P/E component, which actually comprises only about 10% of the total scores. What? No outcry about a 2-fall Oda beating the no-fall Kozuka? Or a 2-fall Takahashi placing higher than Verner and Amodio? Where is the disgust over the distinct possibility of a 2-fall winner of a major competition if Chan had bombed, withdrawn or never qualified to begin with?

    There was some solace in a brave judge giving just scores to Chan so I looked up the judges' marks - GOE(TES) + PCS in Mens FS:

    .......Chan.......Kozuka.........Oda.......Verner. ....Amodio....Takahashi

    J1..6+38.25....11+39.00...11+41.25....7+36.25...8+ 36.75...-3+39.50
    J2..17+45.00...10+36.75....6+39.75....9+39.00....9 +32.75.....1+36.75
    J3..11+44.00...7+37.00.....2+37.75.....5+36.75.... 11+36.25...0+42.50
    J4..14+44.75...2+37.75.....5+39.25....10+35.75.... 2+38.75....2*+43.75
    J5..22+41.75...9+41.50....13+41.00....12+35.75...9 +36.00....-5+42.25
    J6..10+42.50...17+37.75....3+37.50...17+37.50....6 +36.00....-4+39.25
    J7..16+42.75...9+40.00.....0+37.00....10+37.00.... 4+31.25.....2+43.75
    J8..11+43.75...7+37.75.....4+41.25....8+35.50..... 4+34.50....-1+35.75
    J9..17+45.50..16+42.75....7+39.00....7+39.75.....8 +35.00....-5+39.75

    *Judge4 gave +3 GOE to Dai's ChSt1 which Dai himself is disappointed in.

    The Honorable Judge Number One is obviously the Hero, whom I shall adress as a third person masculine. Truly out-of-corridor scores for Patrick. In fact, he's the only one to give the lowest marks in both TES and PCS to a single skater. Judge5 gave the highest TES to Patrick but not the highest PCS and he is generally generous to other skaters as well. Not our Judge1, who is stingy only with Patrick Chan.

    Let's compare how Judge1 scored the no-fall champion and the last placed Florent Amodio. Patrick's PCS is only 1.5 points over Florent's but his GOEs by Judge1 is 2 points lower than Florent's! So he's scored lower than Florent net! And remember ChSt1, the step sequence deemed level 1 for everybody? The over 30 seconds of deep edged fast turns and flying all over the rink that Patrick did to bring his program to a climatic end? He got 1 GOE point for his effort from Judge1 whereas Florent recieved 2 points for all his posing, glaring and thrusting with great musicality.

    There you go. Along with 8 corrupted colluding judges, there's one to be gleeful for. Some of you need to sacrifice more goats to get more hero judges like Judge1 so the system can be saved, or more importantly, Patrick Chan may be bannished.

    Eta: Sorry. I tried to make neat figures but to no avail, even if they looked fine when I wrote them.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 12-11-2010 at 10:03 PM.

  15. #90
    Medalist
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    77
    Quote Originally Posted by sunny0760 View Post
    I have been thinking about Takahashi. He stated he wanted to be the first skater who succeeded in 4F in competition right before the LP. I think he's tried this kind of jump before, never rotated.
    If he can do 4T or 4T-something, why does he not go for 4T instead of 4F? Can he do 4F in practice?

    IMO, comparing his pre-injury days, he shows more comanding presence but less stamina overall, which concerns me a little.
    Because he hasn't been landing the 4T at all in practice but just two-foots the 4F. That's the same reason why he went for the 4F at Worlds. He just got lucky at Japan Open and NHK since he hadn't been landing the 4T in practice then either. He doesn't really have his quad back. And it seems like he really was hurt in the collision after all.

Page 6 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •