The ISU "season standings" prize, B events, and the University games | Golden Skate

The ISU "season standings" prize, B events, and the University games

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The ISU "season standings" prize, B events, and the University games

Continuing our series…

Figure skating is contested at the international University Games every two years. Here are some notable past winners:

Gentlemen:

1966. Nobuo Sato (father of Yuka Sato and current coach of Mao Asada and many others)

1970 Ondrej Nepela (Olympic gold medalist and three-time world champion)

1987 Petr Barna (Paul Wiley was third)

1990 Michael Chack (I wonder if he was chacked.)

1995 Michael Weiss

2005 Daisuke Takahashi

2007 Daisuke Takahashi (Nobunari Oda was second)

Ladies

1995 Tonia Kwiatkowski :love: (Maria Butryskaya was second)

1999 Elena Sokolova (Irina Slutskaya was second)

2003 Shizuka Arakawa

2007 Akiko Shizuki

2009 Yukari Nakano (Kira Korpi was third)

Who should we nominate for 2011? Tufts University graduate student Michelle Kwan?. Recent Yale graduate Sarah Hughes?

Pairs

1997 Shen and Zhao

2007 and 2009 Zhang and Zhang

Dance

1985 Usova and Shulin

1987 Cathrin Beck and Christoff Beck of Australia ::clap: (Usova and Shulin were second)

1995 Lobacheva and Averbukh

2003 Grushina and Goncharov

2005 & 2007 Khocklova and Novitsky

To represent the U.S., a skater has to qualify by winning the U.S. Collegiate Championship. Some recent winners are

1998 Sydney Vogel (University of Alaska)

1999 Derrick Delmore (Stanford)

2003 Jennifer Don (University of Delaware – once held the ISU record CoP score :rock: )

2005, 2006, 2007 Ryan Bradley (University of Colorado)

2004 and 2008 Alissa Czisny (Bowling Green University – two-time Skate Canada champion, 2009 U.S. champion and 2010-11 Grand Prix Champion!)
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Thanks for posting this. To be honest i don't know a thing about this competition.......

Quite a few good skaters have won it - although I see Oda has finished second again. :)
 

brightphoton

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2009
I've never heard of this. Why would we be nominating anyone, Kwan or Hughes or anyone? Is this a real figure skating competition or some sort of fantasy figure skating league?
 

doubleflutz

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
I remember Brian Joubert being very upset that Daisuke Takahashi beat him in the ISU world rankings one year (possibly his annus mirabilis?), because Daisuke won the Universiade and got a lot of points for it. It was sort of funny that Joubert was so bent out of shape, although since I think bonus prize money was at stake, I could see why it he'd press the issue.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I've never heard of this. Why would we be nominating anyone, Kwan or Hughes or anyone? Is this a real figure skating competition or some sort of fantasy figure skating league?

Shall I put you down in the “who cares” column, then? :laugh:

The “Universiade” is a multi-sport gathering of college athletes organized by something called the International University Sports Federation. Like the Olympics, it features a Winter Universiade and a Summer Universiade. These are held in alternate years. There is also a thrid event, for teams, called the “University Championships.”

The forerunners of this competition go back to 1923, in Paris. The modern Universiade dates from 1959, and the one coming up is number XXV. The 2011 Winter Universiade is scheduled for Erzurum, Turkey. (Erzurum outbid Maribor, Slovenia, for the honor of hosting this event.)

As you can see from the partial list of former winners, some national figure skating federations take this competition seriously enough to send their top skaters.

Here is the web site of the governing organization, FISU.

http://www.fisu.net/en/Accueil-950.html

I remember Brian Joubert being very upset that Daisuke Takahashi beat him in the ISU world rankings one year (possibly his annus mirabilis?), because Daisuke won the Universiade and got a lot of points for it. It was sort of funny that Joubert was so bent out of shape, although since I think bonus prize money was at stake, I could see why it he'd press the issue.

I think I read somewhere that the Universiade no longer counts toward the world ranking. The ISU decided it was unfair because not every skater is a university student.

Is this true?
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
My issue is that many of these so-called "University Students" appeared on the registrars' list but never in class. This includes quite a number of the elite skating luminaries you posted above. In this respect, it was kind of a phony competition. When you have more or less full-time students trying to keep up their skating on the side, how are they going to compete head-to-head against "students" who are enrolled for window dressing purposes but essentially practice skating all day long, day after day. And different countries have markedly different rules and regs about class attendance, maintaining student status, etc. I think the ISU cutting out the competition as a vehicle for points-gathering was a good idea, as it pretty much took away incentive for the elite skaters masquerading as faux students to participate, sandbag the competition, and pick up some points like candy without having to work too hard.

Now all of this is kind of moot if you don't put much stock in ISU World Standings in the first place. :p
 

doubleflutz

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
I think I read somewhere that the Universiade no longer counts toward the world ranking. The ISU decided it was unfair because not every skater is a university student.

Is this true?

Yep, I'm fairly sure this is the case, and that it was a direct result of Joubert's whining/legitimate greivances.

bigsisjiejie said:
Now all of this is kind of moot if you don't put much stock in ISU World Standings in the first place.

Well, I believe they are used to calculate the end-of-year bonuses, which can be substantial, up to about $30K per skater for singles and I think around $50K for pairs/dance teams. That's not exactly small potatoes, considered against how much a year of skating on an elite international level costs.
 
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Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
To represent the U.S., a skater has to qualify by winning the U.S. Collegiate Championship.
That selection criterion was added for the 2007 Winter Universiade. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure no USA skaters will be competing at the 2011 Winter Universiade in Erzurum, Turkey, January 27-February 6 -- figure skating info link: http://www.universiadeerzurum.org/figure-skating

These were the skaters that have represented the USA at the recent Winter Universiades (all were full-time university students):
2009 in Harbin, China: Amy Nunn (after Czisny withdrew), Jason Wong, Andrea Best/Trevor Young in pairs, Snyder/Fischl in dance (withdrew before going), Miami University in synchro
2007 in Torino, Italy: Stephanie Roth, Michael Peters, Miami University in synchro
2005 in Innsbruck, Austria: no USA skaters were sent
2003 in Tarvisio, Italy: Angie Lien (she won the silver medal behind Arakawa! :)) and Sean Calvillo -- IIRC, they were selected based on their results at the US Sectional Championships in November 2002
2001 in Zarkopane, Poland: no USA skaters were sent
 
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bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Well, I believe they are used to calculate the end-of-year bonuses, which can be substantial, up to about $30K per skater for singles and I think around $50K for pairs/dance teams. That's not exactly small potatoes, considered against how much a year of skating on an elite international level costs.

Really? This is the first I've ever heard of this. Tell me more. What ranking gets a bonus? Where is the money coming from--ISU payout? Does the money go to the skater or to the national federation? Or do some national federations use the ISU ranking as the guideline to pay out to their own skaters?
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
It's strange that the US dancers are not competing, at least one team.

D&W are both UMich students
S&B are students there too.
Alex Shibutani is a student there too.
Greg Zuerlein attends Schoolcraft College
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Really? This is the first I've ever heard of this. Tell me more. What ranking gets a bonus? Where is the money coming from--ISU payout? Does the money go to the skater or to the national federation? Or do some national federations use the ISU ranking as the guideline to pay out to their own skaters?

On this page, you can click on Communication 1629 to see the details of which placements and which competitions earn points. If you click on ISU Season's World Rankings you can see how many points the leaders have so far.

http://www.isu.org/vsie/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130267-131575-nav-list,00.html

As Doubleflutz posted, the winners in each discipline receive a big cash prize at the end of the season. A skater can essentially double his/her earnings by winning the World Championship and the Season Rankings prize in the same year.

The money comes from the ISU's general funds. It is paid directly to the skaters. I believe that there is some sort of rule that limits the amount that the skaters' federation can take away from them (10%?) -- however, I don't know how or if this is enforced. I remember that Maria Butyrskaya lost all the money she earned in competitive skating because the Russian federation "invested" it for her, and the the bank went bankrupt.

I don't think that national federations use these ranking for anything. But the ISU Worlds Rankings (a different list based on results over two seasins) plays a role in getting Grand Prix assignments.

The purpose of the season's ranking prize was to encourage top skaters not to skip lesser events. It was especially designed to help bolster participation in Four Continents. IIRC the year Caroline Kostner won the world silver medal, she won this prize also because she had skated in some B events earlier in the season.

Gachinski is still #5 on this year's list because he placed well in two early B events.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It's strange that the US dancers are not competing, at least one team.

D&W are both UMich students
S&B are students there too.
Alex Shibutani is a student there too.
Greg Zuerlein attends Schoolcraft College

The dates conflict with U.S. Nationals. Nationals ends January 30th and the University Games begins January 27th.

The other factor is that you have to qualify by winning the U.S. Collegiate Championship. This is held in the summer, and it is really for students involved in their school skating club. Not many elite competitive skaters are interested. Ryan Bradley the last three years was a ringer. :laugh:
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Didn't Czisny win one year? She competed in something associated with collegiate skating. Anyway, to my mind any competition is a good thing, because it gives skaters a chance to try out their programs. This isn't a cheesefest or the Ice Capades. Besides, it's an international competition; that's always a good opportunity for skaters to broaden their horizons. Moreover, when it's held in countries like Turkey, it's a chance for first-time viewers to see skating live, thus creating new fans. That's never a bad thing!

Besides...what's a small competition? Remember the long-gone days, five years ago maybe, when the words "South Korean National Championship" had about as much authority to them as "Jamaican bobsled team"?
 
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bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
On this page, you can click on Communication 1629 to see the details of which placements and which competitions earn points. If you click on ISU Season's World Rankings you can see how many points the leaders have so far.

http://www.isu.org/vsie/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130267-131575-nav-list,00.html

As Doubleflutz posted, the winners in each discipline receive a big cash prize at the end of the season. A skater can essentially double his/her earnings by winning the World Championship and the Season Rankings prize in the same year.

The money comes from the ISU's general funds. It is paid directly to the skaters. I believe that there is some sort of rule that limits the amount that the skaters' federation can take away from them (10%?) -- however, I don't know how or if this is enforced. I remember that Maria Butyrskaya lost all the money she earned in competitive skating because the Russian federation "invested" it for her, and the the bank went bankrupt.

I don't think that national federations use these ranking for anything. But the ISU Worlds Rankings (a different list based on results over two seasins) plays a role in getting Grand Prix assignments.

The purpose of the season's ranking prize was to encourage top skaters not to skip lesser events. It was especially designed to help bolster participation in Four Continents. IIRC the year Caroline Kostner won the world silver medal, she won this prize also because she had skated in some B events earlier in the season.

Gachinski is still #5 on this year's list because he placed well in two early B events.

Thanks for info--I had no idea about the money bonus, though I was aware of the ranking list use in eligibility for GP assignments. It does seem to be a system that favors European skaters though, as a significant amount of points-earning opportunities are in those Senior B competitions, which are all in Europe and therefore more accessible without great expense and training disruption to skaters located there.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, that's true. Let's see how this advantage might work out in real life.

For example, according to this year's rankings, not only are Davis and White behind Pechalat and Bourzat by 380 points; they are also behind Hoffman and Zavozin by 107 points, and are only 146 points ahead of Caron and Jones of France in fourth place. The senior B competitions allow Europeans to score 500 points easily, while North Americans and Asians have to travel to Europe to find a Senior B. Some of these competitions are not very competitive either; you can tell since Caron and Jones won two of them, accounting for their fourth place positions in the standings to date.

By contrast, Davis and White only gained 80 points on Pechalat and Bourzat's lead by beating them head to head in the Grand Prix Finals. If Pechalat and Bourzat finish second to Davis and White at Worlds, D&W will only gain an additional 120 points on P&B, and P&B will won the top money by virtue of the two senior B's they competed in. However, it's worse. Suppose P&B do not even compete at Worlds but win Europeans. They will earn 840 points for Europeans. If D&W win Worlds, they will gain 1200 points. They will still lose the competition for the money to P&B for this calendar year. :eek: despite defeating P&B in their head to head compeition and winning the World championships while P&B might not even have competed at Worlds.

So this system is not fair to Asians and North Americans at all.

Another consequence of the lack of Senior B competitions in Asia and North America, and their effect on these standings, is that they have an effect on the start order in Grand Prix events via the 3 year version of the standings. H&Z are higher than you might expect there too, because they have done 2 or more Senior B's both the years that they have competed on the international scene, thus giving them an additional 975 point advantage over teams who did not compete in Senior B's. Note that Virtue and Moir are only in fourth, over the 3 year span, because they have skipped the Grand Prix in 2 seasons and done no Senior B competitions at all..

Teams only get points from their best placing at an ISU championship per year, so Tessa and Scott and Charlie and Meryl only get their points from Olympics, not worlds, and if they had competed at 4CC's, they would not have gained an additional points for that, either.

So the point system accomplishes three things:
1. Incentivizes top teams to go to Senior B's and Grand Prix events, which is to the ISU's advantage
2. Advantages European skaters and teams in start order in ISU events for the SP or SD portion of the event
3. Advantages Europena skaters in the competition for the ISU monetary award for the Season's Best Standings.
 
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Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
But the ISU Worlds Rankings (a different list based on results over two seasins) plays a role in getting Grand Prix assignments.

Also the skating order in sp is based on the ranking list.

ETA: Just noticed that DorisPulaski mentions the same above...
 
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bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
<snip for brevity>

So the point system accomplishes three things:
1. Incentivizes top teams to go to Senior B's and Grand Prix events, which is to the ISU's advantage
2. Advantages European skaters and teams in start order in ISU events for the SP or SD portion of the event
3. Advantages Europena skaters in the competition for the ISU monetary award for the Season's Best Standings.

This thread has taken a different turn away from the original title/subject, yet the World Ranking points system pro vs con is an interesting topic that I haven't seen a special thread for before. Perhaps taking the last few posts and using them to start a new thread with relevant title would be useful, as there may be some forum members out there with valuable thoughts on this, who would overlook this particular thread based on Universiade subject title. Just a suggestion...
 
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