Tessa and Scott are back in business

Even if V/M did not medal this time around, I don't think it would be a terrible blow to them or an indication that they've peaked/not interested in competing etc. It's important to look at the seaon as a whole....they sat is out due to injury and have from my understanding, had little time to train. How anyone could expect them to win much less medal is mystery to me. The field is deep and yes, they are defending champs and are likely better than most of thier peers at 75%, but even then, it may not be enough. There is no shame in that.....it's not like they've been winning all year and suddenly laid an egg or suffered an injury and tried to push through it. They were injured from the get-go and should be happy that they're back in time to even compete at worlds. That's a sucess in and of itself.

People who know the sport will understand if they they don't medal and will appreciate what an accomplishment it would be if they did medal. It's the casual viewer who didn't know they were injured who will say they're toast if they don't win.

dwiggin3 said:

Okay, clearly I missed the announcement that Worlds was in London, ONT in 2013. Yikes..I wonder what else I've missed. Sorry.

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Even you missed it, don't feel sorry, the tickets didn't go on sale just yet

For me, when i have heard the worlds be there, first I thought:
great, this one i won't miss no matter what, as I have yet to go to one Worlds in person and they just put this one in my backyard, and second, this might just determine Tessa and Scott to continue skating, as they were not yet decided (it was last May I think), after Turin and before they decided to continue.

This is great news. So glad to hear that Tessa's recovery has gone so well.
I have missed them this season.

ImaginaryPogue said:

You don't think the judges will PCS them to second? I agree that if they don't think they can get 2nd, they won't go (which makes sense, no point in losing ground), but I don't think that SC will let them be dumped

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Their injury is probably worse than their 2008-2009 season one considering that year there was little doubt they would back for Canadians. And that year they barely won bronze at Worlds, and would have been 4th or 5th had Delobel & Schoenfelder competed.

So why would one assume they would finish 1st or 2nd just like normal situation if they return after even longer off with even more time off the ice for her with a worse injury. It is pretty obvious they wont be at their best.

Your last comment is interesting. You are admitting you feel SC has alot of influence when I brought up the idea in the Chan threads to partially explain some of his ridiculous scores you dismissed it. Just saying.....

1. I realize that I seem to contradict myself with the SC comment, but two things. (A) I've read a lot of people who point out that SC has a major degree of influence, so even if I don't always see it in the results, I can't ignore the fact that there's a prima facie demonstration thereof and (b) I know that YOU yourself believe that SC has that power. So if they do, why would they let their most recognizable stars drop....

2. ... unless they had to, of course. Their injury may be worse (I don't think it is) and I think the difference between two years ago and now is the fact that they needed to be on the worlds circuit to be thought of as contenders for the Olympics. Now they don't have to rush - they are contenders.

3. Yes, if DelSchoes competed they would've been lower. But there is not DelShoes or DomShabs around now. Just D/W. At their best, only D/W has a hope of matching them. Even when they barely won bronze (which is undeniably true) they still outpaced Pecehlat/Bourzat, the Kerrs and Faella/Scali. So now, there's a greater distance between them and the rest (which there wasn't before). If we use last year's worlds to go by, they have a fall advantage easily, and that translates to two-three levels overall.

4. We'll see by Canadians, I suppose.

I do indeed think Skate Canada has alot of clout currently. However I also think Skate Canada were already a very strong frederation with alot of pull at the time of the 2009 Worlds. Yet Virtue & Moir coming back late to the season with injury still barely managed a bronze with the defending World Champs out, so with that into account could have easily been 4th or 5th. I also believe dance has become the fairest judged event since COP was introduced when it used to be the most corrupt. Go figure. It seems the hardest to politik for things like inflated PCS or GOE of all the disciplines now.

Yes some teams have retired but that doesnt mean the field is alot weaker. That is what always happens, teams move on and others have to come in and replace them. That has happened in each discipline in skating over the years, but has the caliber gotten less in most dicsiplines over time? No, it has only improved. Virtue & Moir arent the only ones improving. Pechelat & Bourzat were miles behind DelSchoes for example in 2008 and 2009 and at the Olympics they nearly beat them. DelSchoes and DomShabs who were the top 2 teams in the World in both 2008 and 2009 but both saw their standing slide well backwards in 2010 as a variety of teams improved.

V&M at their best would easily beat P&B. However since they wont be if they return this year I see them finishing in 3rd or 4th just like 2009, far below D&W and probably below P&B as well. We will see if they actually do return this season at all and then how it turns out but that is what I forecast. I see similar to 2009. As for a fall advantage, in 2009 when they returned the overall sloppiness and rustiness compared to their sharpest was worth more than a fall total probably (they were well over a fall in points from winning that year it turned out) and I see a similar situation here. If you arent getting the level 4s and you are struggling through some elements and even making mistakes on some, which I fully expect from a V&M with Tessa off the ice so long considering how hard and technical dance is now, you cant just be PCSed to a placement.

I see where you're coming from. I have higher hopes about their ability to get the levels (they did an all level four FD in 2009, despite the rustiness) outside of the Golden Waltz patterns, and Shpilband/Zoueva are without peer at packing the difficulty to maintain higher marks.

I'd also point out that while it is harder to PCS to win a medal, it's not impossible. V/M got their 2009 bronze due to PCS and DomShabs Olympics medal was PCS'ed as well.

I would have to look back at all the old protocals but I thought DomShabs had similar TES and PCS to Belbin & Agosto in the Vancouver OD and FD, but their big lead in the CDs gave them the bronze. I dont remember their TES being significantly lower but their PCS significantly higher to compensate in any program which would be for me getting PCSed. V/M had a bit lower TES and a bit higher PCS than D//W in 2009 but it wasnt a major difference in either that I remember.

And I would need to check the protocals of V/M's 2009 skates again. If they really did have all level 4s then their GOE must have suffered even more than I thought with their stumbles and general rustiness.

V&M said heading into the 2009 Worlds they had only managed to do about four full run-throughs of their FD because of her recovery. I think if they are in the same boat this year, they won't compete at Worlds. They don't need to push it that hard in the year after the Olympics. If she's already back on the ice doing shows, it sounds like her recovery is in a better place than last time.

[Sarcasm On]I love it the fact that several usual suspects are already wishing / predicting Virtue/Moir are doom before they are even back yet. Gotta love these Jo-Jo-1-900-XXX-XXXX naysayers.[Sarcasm Off]

Virtue/Moir may not win the Worlds this year, but it is also quite unlikely they will end up off the podium in Tokyo because there isn't a 3rd team in the world that can reasonably take that place, based on the scores of teams competed so far. Italians are struggling this year and the British Champions were beaten by the 2nd rank Canadian team who is more worried about maintaining their rank vs. the 3rd bank Canadian team. So you have to wonder, how do the usual suspects come up with such prediction? the landscape is good for them to come back as there are still 2 major competitions prior to Worlds, with Canadian Nationals and 4CC, for which they can get some mileage on. Skate Canada can even stage simulated competition for them as well if necessary, even setting up a panel full of ISU and Int'l Judges and allow these two to get some real feedback.

However, I am also getting the impression the real motivation behind these outrageous doom sayers is a few people's malicious propaganda, trying to damage these two's standing vis-a-vis Davis/White on the internet, their real rivals - creating a non-existent impression that these two shouldn't come back. Plus, their real rivals, the Americans, are actually struggling even without injuries - lost count how many times they went flat on ice this season, thus gave judges a hesitation in making them the dominant team. I think these people are really worried and secretly upset that Davis/White just won't be given a carte blanche for the World Championship in Tokyo and of course, these "fans" will deny it and pretend they love and like Virtue/Moir in reality they really wish they would just stop skating, retire or split.

wallylutz said:

However, I am also getting the impression the real motivation behind these outrageous doom sayers is a few people's malicious propaganda, trying to damage these two's standing vis-a-vis Davis/White on the internet, their real rivals - creating a non-existent impression that these two shouldn't come back. Plus, their real rivals, the Americans, are actually struggling even without injuries - lost count how many times they went flat on ice this season, thus gave judges a hesitation in making them the dominant team. I think these people are really worried and secretly upset that Davis/White just won't be given a carte blanche for the World Championship in Tokyo and of course, these "fans" will deny it and pretend they love and like Virtue/Moir in reality they really wish they would just stop skating, retire or split.

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Many of skaters' fans are like that to their rivals: it's nothing new. Although I've seen what you mentioned to be abundant D/W fan behaviour prevalent (who are posters in this same thread above me): I will illustarate in the following example-

"Cindy" pretends to like the rivals of her favorite skaters (in order to suck up to their fans in order to gain popularity for her favorite skaters): She gets a "following" of those other fans, such as "Billy" to like her favorite skater. "Billy" goes on fan gush of "Cindy"'s favorite skater. "Cindy" is happy now. Meanwhile, "Billy" is so enamoured he feels the need to every time please "Cindy", even if it means diminishing Billy's own personal favorites. If "Cindy" sees a poster, say "Sara" commenting harshly/critically on Cindy's favorite skater, she pulls out the iron fists. How so? By trashing Sara's favorites.

Those poeple ("Billy") are really not fans of their favorites as they keep hacking away that they are. If so, they would not feel needy to mutually suck up to "Cindy" every single time.

Again cyber politicking whatever you want to call it, nothing new in sports forums. For ex, Steffi Graf vs. Monica Seles: I was really disgusted by this fan propaganda on their tennis forums, when Seles suffered that assault Graf's fans did the exact same thing even 15 years later. It helps Graf fans feel I guess more secure, just like now, in that why not take an opportunity to promote your favorites now, its best possible time.

Is sad that "Cindy" feels bound to like/enjoy rivals of her favorite skaters in order for the rivals fans (like Billy) to in return, become fans of "Cindy"'s favorites. Normally it results in one thing: Sara comes along, criticizes harshly one of "Cindy"'s favorites in which "Cindy" finally lets loose. Wrath unleashed. "Cindy" could've unleashed her criticism of Sara's favorites long ago but chose not to in order to get Sara's following of Cindy's favorite skater. That is what I view as really unfortunate of "Cindy" as it exposes her agenda all along( and of course unsportsman like character too )

However, I am also getting the impression the real motivation behind these outrageous doom sayers is a few people's malicious propaganda, trying to damage these two's standing vis-a-vis Davis/White

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Especially if such malicious proapaganda is instigated by person of authority figure.
But if "Cindy" has some kind of authority on the net many do not want to fight her on issues.

Story is still not clear to me

However, no matter how many internet fans attempt to politick one way or another, let us hope the judges just judge what they see on the ice. So far, that's what they have been doing. As pangtongfan said, who would have thought a few years ago that ice dance would be the most fairly judged of the disciplines?

Of course, with the strange tech stuff going on with the levels of the GW, perhaps you can't quite say that this year; still, it's more that the tech panels were still getting their act together this fall than that any team was being unfairly favored. This SD business is new to tech panel too!

And mostly, when fans attempt to politick for their skaters, the person they are most trying to convince is themselves.

I find this difficult to follow. Are V/M continuing the competitions after they received the Jewel in the Crown? Resting on laurels is a good thing once one has had everthing. But that decision is up to V/M. Is it definite they will return to competitions? and if so, what, when, and where?

When and where are not entirely sure, depending on Tessa's condition. They are now skating in a show. They hope to be back by Canadians, want to definitely be back by Worlds, and I have no idea whether they plan to do 4CC's or not.

Joesitz said:

I find this difficult to follow. Are V/M continuing the competitions after they received the Jewel in the Crown? Resting on laurels is a good thing once one has had everthing. But that decision is up to V/M. Is it definite they will return to competitions? and if so, what, when, and where?

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If they wanted to rest on their laurels, they would've not started to preprae competitive programs this summer. But they did, as they decided to continue for now.
After that, the continuous pain in Tessa's legs put a hold into their season before it started. All is up in the air until she feels OK to train hard again and then she will see how she feels. If things will go well and can train, then they will enter the Canadian nationals which will come in about 5-6 weeks. We will know for sure by mid January.
If there are posters attending the show this week end in London, an update on how they skate would be greatly appreciated!

herios said:

If there are posters attending the show this week end in London, an update on how they skate would be greatly appreciated!

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by all means, a report would indeed be greatly appreciated.

dorispulaski said:

Story is still not clear to me

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Well it should

wallylutz said:

[Sarcasm On]I I think these people are really worried and secretly upset that Davis/White just won't be given a carte blanche for the World Championship in Tokyo and of course, these "fans" will deny it and pretend they love and like Virtue/Moir in reality they really wish they would just stop skating, retire or split.

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Yes!
And a lot off people really dont want to see V-M skating, because they worry it will be hard replace them even with injury.
And all this comments they will be 4th or 5th - common, guys! At 2009 WCh P-B and F-S wasnt even close to there score.
And why you are so bored V-M want to compete? Is this bad for ice dance to see there skating? Why do you think you know more, then this two about what they need to do?
And dont worry - D-W will be given gold even with 3 falls at WCh.

That's great news...