Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 34

Thread: Elena, Anton, Jamie, and David

  1. #1
    Custom Title CoyoteChris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Spokane
    Posts
    1,477

    Elena, Anton, Jamie, and David

    I was just re-watching the 2002 Olympics Salt Lake shootout between Elena and Anton vs Jamie and David, and wondered if anyone who knows a heck of a lot more than I do has done a judging of both free skates under the new system? It looks to my untrained eye that under the artistry marks, there was no contest. E and A hardly looked at each other and seemed tentitive. J and D looked great. But now we have components. Also, I am no good at all on the technical side.
    Anyone care to take a stab?

  2. #2
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    2,070
    Artistry is *SO* subjective. For me, Elena & Anton had everything over Jamie and David. I'll take the elegance of their FS over S/P's cheesy snowballs every day.

    Elena and Anton have much better skating skills and transitions than S/P, IMO.

  3. #3
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    17,131
    The problem is that some of the moves are illegal nowadays. And the point values have shifted radically, depending on what year you are in. But it's worth a shot.

    AFAIR, Elena & Anton skated faster than any other team, and AFAIR, they had more transitions than Jamie & David, so these days they would get Chan-like Skating Skills marks, thus boosting their PCS over anyone else's regardless of what they did on the ice. Furthermore, under any scoring system and Code of Points, their SP was miles better than Jamie & David's, and they would have been carrying a Huge lead into the LP.

  4. #4
    Custom Title CoyoteChris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Spokane
    Posts
    1,477
    Hey, thanks Doris! That puts an interesting perspective on the matchup. I have often wondered if some sort of hysteria evolved because of the perception of the crowd, the announcers, and the reaction of the Canadians.
    And especially Scotty saying emphatically, "THEY WON THAT PROGRAM!"

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    2,070
    I think Scott & Sandra had to do a lot with it. By their commentating, you'd think B/S had splatted all over the place rather than having a simple step out on a more difficult program. Talk about biased commentating!

  6. #6
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    4,990
    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    I think Scott & Sandra had to do a lot with it. By their commentating, you'd think B/S had splatted all over the place rather than having a simple step out on a more difficult program. Talk about biased commentating!
    agreed. i always wanted to hear what the guys over on EuroSport Britain had to say about it, or even better the russian commentators.

  7. #7
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    17,131
    Do you speak Russian? If so, I am sure that the video is on youtube of Elena & Anton, with Russian commentary.

  8. #8
    Custom Title CoyoteChris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Spokane
    Posts
    1,477
    Here is a link where you can watch the Elena and Anton
    progrm in 480P. I think the language is Russian.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_VDRBCOslo&NR=1

    The comments to the youtube clips agree with you folks....I think I have been converted....

  9. #9
    Custom Title CoyoteChris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Spokane
    Posts
    1,477
    Here is the same PTP network coverage in Russian of J and D
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fjz1p...eature=related

  10. #10
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,829
    Well...the controversy was not about which team skated better or who should have won. It was about the judging.

    For starters, Scott Hamilton screaming into the television microphone had nothing to do with it. The judges were not watching on TV when they entered their marks, so they did not know what the North American or Russian commentators were saying over the air.

    As it turned out, all of the judges from the Eastern bloc -- Russia, China, Poland, and Ukraine -- had a great eye for the sophistication of Berezhnaya and Sikarudlidze's program.

    Strange as it seems. none of the four Western bloc countries noticed B&S greater speed, the intricacy of their transitions, and the complexity of their choreography. They -- USA, Canada, Germany and Japan -- all voted for Sale and Pelletier's technical gem.

    Surprise, surprise.

    So that left France. The French judge voted for the Russian team, then broke down in tears in public and said that the President of her federation made her do it, then repeated this confession in the referee's meeting, then recanted and said, no, none of this was true, then blamed the Canadians for trying (unsuccessfully) to pressure her into voting for Sale and Pelletiere. The President of the International Olympic Committee took Cinquanta to the woodshed and told him to clean this up or else, etc., etc.

    The question of who actually skated better was kind of lost in the shuffle.

    In later years, as far as I can tell by reading the Internet, the consensus seems to be that Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze were miles ahead of Sale and Pelletier. Why this was not evident to the judges from the Western bloc then becomes a mystery.

  11. #11
    Custom Title CoyoteChris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Spokane
    Posts
    1,477
    Mathman, I like you last paragraph. As I watched the short programs on Youtube today, and wrote down the scores, it occured to me that there is a very fine line between out and out cheating by making deals and biased judging. I have no idea where that line is. But I still think there are interesting facets here besides the cheating/mis-judging. One would be how close was this contest in the cold light of honest judging, under the new and old systems. And two would be the mass hysteria caused by the crowd chanting "6,6,6...) and the commentary that lead us to believe that Elena was just barely landing her throws, etc and Scotty, the Walter Cronkite of Skating, saying THEY WON THAT PROGRAM. Now take all that and put it into the last Olympics, only substituteing Davis and White and Virtue and Moir. No matter who one believes did the better skating, the whole thing was handled much more maturely, and, I hope, honestly. But I still think folks need to know who is responsible for each score.

  12. #12
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    17,131
    Chris didn't ask who should have won under 6.0 in 2002. He asked what COP would have made of the two programs.

    But if we're going to go back to 6.0...


    In the day, there was some respect for a "clean program". Under COP, we don't care about that any more. We just add up the points. But the "clean program" esthetic is one reason that the B&S program did not ring a bell with the Western judges, I think. It is often said that B&S had just one error-Anton's step out on a jump. However, it wasn't so. Several elements that had been smooth and effortless for them in the SP seemed to be muscled out. In COP, that would be lesser GOE on elements. But in 6.0, it was whatever the judges chose it to be.

    In 6.0, whichever team won the LP, won overall, regardless of how superior the other team had been in the SP.

    So that's why it could be a mixed panel in 6.0.

  13. #13
    Custom Title CoyoteChris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Spokane
    Posts
    1,477
    Yes, well put. As you said, Under the old system, If one does not look at the short program at all, then the whole competition becomes much closer. And there is the wild card of a clean program carrying weight. It would appear to me that It would be a very difficult job IN THE TIME ALLOWED to judge these two programs fairly under the old system. But others have said, and I believe it to be true, that a large part of skating appreciation is "what you like". I happen to like Davis and White over Virtue and Moir. I like Evan over Johnny...I would be a terrible judge. The new system certainly has it faults, and perhaps can and will be continually tweaked. But I think it is a start to fairness. I do think judges need to be tied to their scores, and judges married to the heads of their country's skating federations should not be allow to work. But I am a dreamer, and while I am not sure what the third man in a four man bobsled team has to go through to win a gold medal, I know a very little bit about what a skater and their family has to go through to win Gold at the Olympics. And we owe it to them to see as much as possible that they are judged fairly.

    Chris still trying to get that shuttle pass for Greensboro

  14. #14
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    17,131
    Can't you just buy the shuttle pass when you get there?

    BTW, a number of judges have preferred D&W from time to time over V&M.

    After all, D&W beat V&M at 4CC's last year, based on a strong showing in the OD..

    They beat V&M in the FD at the 2009 and 2010 Worlds, too.

    So the teams are very close, with significantly different strengths. I don't think D&W have ever beaten V&M in the CD. So you are not alone, there.

    Not to mention, Evan has beaten Johnny any number of times-judges would agree with you.

  15. #15
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,829
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    So that's why it could be a mixed panel in 6.0.
    Yes...but...the mix turned out to be, all four of the Western bloc judges admired a clean program, while all four Eastern bloc judges felt that other factors deserved more weight.

    The odds against this exact split occurring by chance are 257 to 1.

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •