Elena, Anton, Jamie, and David

My two penneth....

If I recall correctly - the British Eurosport guys were left scratching their heads when S&P didn't win.

Robin Cousins on the BBC said he didn't understand the result and said something along the lines that even as a massive B&S fan, he thought they skated nervous and tentative and without their usual polish.

What I observed a few days after the competition was a large number of people feeling that S&P should have won. What I observe now is that it has become almost mandatory for people to take pot shots at S&P and call them sucky whining babies....i don't really understand why but gather it has to do with the media exposure in North America, something I wasn't exposed to.

For me, I love watching competitions with these two pairs skating and (ignoring the controversy that seems to surround their competitions) think the programmes they used were exquisite, it really shows up how COP has changed (read ruined!) pairs skating.

Ant

Ant, Good to see you back! Welcome!

ANTMAN!!!!!

Hey Antman, thanks for the UK prospective...very interesting....I wonder what the commentators on the continent were saying....? I certainly dont take any potshots at Jamie and David, although I am an Elena and Anton fan.

Work slows down in the lead up to Christmas so I had time to drop in!

I'm not sure what the commentators in the rest of Europe were saying but I seem to recall reading people say it was fairly split.

I like both pairs an awful lot and love rewatching their programmes. Both LPs at 2001 worlds brought tears to my eyes and remember thinking that it was pretty lucky to find the top two couples sooooooo good.

I think people on this board tend to be more reasonable about the whole thing. I've seen a lot of bile written about S&P and how they didn't deserve gold (some even going as far as to say they barely deserved bronze lol). It makes me smile because at the time I think i was using usenet to keep up with figure skating and 99% of the posts were complaining about the fact S&P didn't win, with a few knowledgeable fans trying very hard to rationalise a decision in favour of B&S.

I think part of it now is that many people write that B&S would have won easliy under COP. But I don't know. I thought both couples skated great and it's a shame that the judges would ruin things behind the scenes.

Ant

Good thoughts, Antman. But in a way, the cheating brought about a number of good things, at least IMHO. While I always want the best couple to win, both these couples got recognition they deserved. In fact, if someone said that there should be room for ties, for the sake of argument, couples being within two points, then I would consider that. This isnt horse racing. There is after all margin of error. But the biggest thing is the new scoring system that, while not perfect, is better than what we had. Someone told me long ago that they saw a international competition where there was some great number of ice dance couples, say over 10, and each came in the exact order for all three dances. What are the odds of that? In fact, didnt Pasha fall once and still win the gold?

CoyoteChris said:

In fact, didnt Pasha fall once and still win the gold?

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Actually, I think it was her partner Evgeni Platov. He stumbled onto his knees - not a total splat. Oksana/Pasha was credited by the commentators for holding onto his hand which prevented them from being penalized for not being in hold for an extended period of time. It may also have prevented him from totally splatting. IMHO, it wasn't entirely disruptive to the program.

CoyoteChris said:

Some folks like Picasso and some like Rembrant.....

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They are both renowned creative artists that everyone likes for their contribution to Art (Painting).
However, some like Warhol and some like DaVinci. More serious lovers of Art would like them both.
One is not forced to choose except in a competition, and why put them into a silly competition. Great Creative and Performing Artists can be loved and appreciated for what they bring to the viewer. No competition is needed.

heyang, do you remember the year? Was it 94 Lillehammer or 98 Nagano? All this is probably me...I just watched '09 LA Worlds FD tonight and I cant for the life in me see what the judges saw in Domnina and Shabalin's FD there. Interestingly, the crowd was not happy that V and M got Bronze over D and W.

CoyoteChris said:

heyang, do you remember the year? Was it 94 Lillehammer or 98 Nagano? All this is probably me...I just watched '09 LA Worlds FD tonight and I cant for the life in me see what the judges saw in Domnina and Shabalin's FD there. Interestingly, the crowd was not happy that V and M got Bronze over D and W.

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I had to look, but it was their 94 free dance at World's that I was recalling. Stumble happened about 40-45 seconds into this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFEvbCedO6I

Thanks! It was Fun to see that again....it just goes to show about false memories.....I had a very real memory that they she had stubbled at an Olympic event and still took Gold.....I guess old age isnt for sissies! My bad.

Coyote, I agree about D&S in 2009. I even thought B&A were placed too high. D&W had the best FD, and I would have had them and V&M in gold and silver positions. The crowd was American, so it's no surprise they weren't happy with D&W off the podium.

CoyoteChris said:

Good thoughts, Antman. But in a way, the cheating brought about a number of good things, at least IMHO. While I always want the best couple to win, both these couples got recognition they deserved. In fact, if someone said that there should be room for ties, for the sake of argument, couples being within two points, then I would consider that. This isnt horse racing. There is after all margin of error. But the biggest thing is the new scoring system that, while not perfect, is better than what we had. Someone told me long ago that they saw a international competition where there was some great number of ice dance couples, say over 10, and each came in the exact order for all three dances. What are the odds of that? In fact, didnt Pasha fall once and still win the gold?

Click to expand...

While I am not a fan of the programmes that have been created by COP, I can see how the judging has improved a little from ordinals days (although I believe the judges are now working out how to manipulate scores through GOE and PCS and we will eventually be back at square one) I think pairs is the discipline that has been ruined in terms of programmes. The COP has ruined the lifts (we only ever see lasso lifts at the senior level or hip lifts with a million changes of position, changes of hold, flipping dismounts) I miss the days of lifts that went up strong and fast, the position held throughout the lift, the man flying across the length of the rink with clean secure mohawks and putting the lady back softly losing no speed. The top couples are more than capabale of this but in order to hike up the levels it's gone. No more platter lifts either.

The most ruined element for me though is the death sprial - change hands, grab foot, have the man break his pivot, hunch over and drag the lady round like a vacuum cleaner just about eeking out one more revolution.....:disapp: such a beautiful element ruined.

I watched a couple of new very young pairs practising at my rink the other day and realised that their programme (while scary in places to watch!) was much more enjoyable as they are at the stage of learning the moves for the first time so the overhead lifts were more classic with no changes of positions and the death sprial a normal classic one.

CoyoteChris said:

Thanks! It was Fun to see that again....it just goes to show about false memories.....I had a very real memory that they she had stubbled at an Olympic event and still took Gold.....I guess old age isnt for sissies! My bad.

Click to expand...

I think you are right remembering Pasha/Oksana falling but I think it was in the lead up to Nagano on the GP rather than actually at the olys.

Definitely no falls in Nagano - I just rewatched all their programmes from Nagano and aside from her catching herself on her free foot during the first pattern of the Golden Waltz there were no other obvious (at least to this ice dance heathen's eyes!) errors. Actually it's funny to watch back the youtubes now as I remember Robin Cousins really hating G&P (I don't think he forgave them for 94!) and trying to explain that their whole free dance was based on Oksana repeatedly doing twizzles in various positions and that's all....rewatching it today i really enjoyed all the programmes, one question for those more knowledagebale about dance - was he regarded as the stronger dancer of the pair? It seems to me that Pasha had a tendancy to break at the wait a little and not quite match his leg extension as well.

One final observation - rewatching their jive OD I saw a few little moves in there that he must have given to the Kerrs in last year's OD as a few of the moves looked very familiar from last year - there was a very similar feel about the two programmes.

Ant

Ant

I agree with Ant about some of the artistry being sucked out of pairs with the new system...in the olde days,my favorites were ladies, Pairs, Mens and Dance in the old system and now it is Dance, Ladies, Pairs and mens. Dance is where the artistry and romance is. I feel like going back and watching some Gord and Grink today.
Antilles, I think I do agree with you about B and A in 2009. I dont think it was as much them as the program. I too would have put D and W first. No one plays to the crowd like they did the past two seasons. And what is dance if not drama and romance? I really enjoy the Kerrs....I think I have liked all of there programs with the possible exception of the People from another world dance...I bet they would be a great couple to sit down and have a few beers with. I hope they are on the upcomming Riverdance/Celtic special.