Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 76

Thread: Those Little Errors in Scoring

  1. #1
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185

    Those Little Errors in Scoring

    I presume they are not in the class of URs, WETs, or Falls.

    They are definitely noticed by fans and judges alike.

    How serious in scoring are they marked?

    Jumps

    Rotations - Is there any counter rotation in the air when it is required?

    Landings - Those curlicue (my name) when the skater lands a wonky jump and make a semi loop headed in the wrong direction of outflow when it should have flow out?

    - Those wonky jumps when a skater steps out of his landing?

    - Those two foot landings?

    - Those toe-pick landings?

    - Other?

    Spins

    Those Travelling Spins?

    Those less than Required rotations?

    Those with special positions - are they correct? Which is correct - the head only or the torso?

    Those 'combo' spins - do they have sufficient rotations for all parts of the combo?

    Other?

  2. #2
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,964
    I'm not sure what you're asking. How does the scoring system handle small errors on elements?

    Most of the examples you listed would be reflected in the Grades of Execution.

    For some of the spin examples you give, they could make the difference in whether the tech panel gives credit for an intended feature and calls a higher level or not.

  3. #3
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    936
    Turnouts are usually -1
    Step outs/Two-foots are usually -2 (unless the judge doesn't see the two-foot)
    Bad landings are usually -GOE

    Travelling spins are -GOE
    Less than required rotations is deducted in levels, even down to a level 1
    This was posted at FSU: Akiko Suzuki's flying camel combination spin was called a level 4 at Finlandia, but only level 1 at Cup of China.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3FPo1XQfiE (starting @ 1:12)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ybb6_1Qhhk4 (starting @ 1:31)
    At CoC she didn't do enough revolutions in the cannonball position (required to be at least 2)
    Last edited by burntBREAD; 12-24-2010 at 02:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    Those are good examples of the use of negative GoEs but we don't know exactly what the reason is for many a -GoE. One has to guess. Was it that step out of the landing on the 3Flip or was it that toe-pick landing on the 4Toe. All elements have definitions to show perfection.

    Examples of Akiko above, do not show uniformity in judging; and definitely different Panels of Judges are never the same. This is extremely unfair to contestants.

  5. #5
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Right, but Akiko didn't show uniformity in skating.

  6. #6
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,825
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ...we don't know exactly what the reason is for many a -GoE. One has to guess. Was it that step out of the landing on the 3Flip or was it that toe-pick landing on the 4Toe.
    Actually, I feel like I am getting better and better at making these guesses. If a skater does a 3Filp and it looks OK except for a step-out on the landing, and then I see in the protocols that all the judges gave -1 GOE on that flip, then I can pat myself on the back that I saw the same thing the judges saw.

    It is a little harder when five of the judging give -1 to that flip and four judges give 0 GOE. This means that some of the judges saw something extra special in that particular jump (maybe superior height and distance and excellent air position?) that balanced out the error and brought the overall GOE on that jump up to 0 on that judge's score card.

    Fortunately we can see how each judge scored each individual element.

  7. #7
    chillyfranz
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It is a little harder when five of the judging give -1 to that flip and four judges give 0 GOE. This means that some of the judges saw something extra special in that particular jump (maybe superior height and distance and excellent air position?) that balanced out the error and brought the overall GOE on that jump up to 0 on that judge's score card.
    I agree here. But what happens next? All judges who give -1 for downgraded flip , and other judges who see "something unique" about the flip (or finding ways possible to find something unique, don't care what it is, a little more height or distance than a another competitor's clean flip) give a +0 or +1 (which may be equal to what a clean competitor got) It is not a fair evaluation in my humble opinion. Too many of the variation of GOEs by individual judges, when judges are asked to defend their mark they find any way to justify it.

  8. #8
    chillyfranz
    Guest
    Mainly , I think the ISU should do a educational reform for all the judges. Some times, judges mark a downgrade as -negative GOE but others don't because they already assume its taken into account by the technical panel. There has to be a consistentcy and transparency in Technical panels and judging panels.

  9. #9
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Posts
    3,964
    What kind of error are we talking about here?

    A step out from a landing is supposed to get a -2 reduction in the GOE. So even if the jump was special enough in other ways to deserve +GOE before the reduction,

    I don't think you'll find an example of a jump with a step out that gets 0 GOE from four judges. Maybe from one or two judges who happened to look down to record the mark as soon as the jump was landed and missed the step out.

    This would be more likely with an easier-to-miss error such as a wrong edge takeoff or landing, light touchdown with the free foot, or minor underrotation.

    Also, the jump just might not be very good, without outright errors. E.g., scratchy landing or ugly air position. In that case, I could certainly imagine judges disagreeing about whether to give 0 or -1.

    If we're talking about downgraded jumps, then even if it looked good enough in real time for some judges to give 0 or +1, not only will the -GOE from the majority of judges likely take the GOE lower than what a clean competitor earned, but the base value of the jump will also be lowered.

    "Downgraded" means that a triple is scored with the base mark of a double jump, so even without negative GOE the total score for the element will be significantly less than that for a clean triple.

    This year, downgrading for a the lower-rotation jump, marked with << on the protocols and on the judges' screens, is only for jumps that are severely underrotated -- 180 degrees or more. It's extremely unlikely that 4 judges would miss that error and give +GOE.

    New this year is the "underrotated" designation, marked with <, for jumps underrotated by more than 90 but less than 180 degrees. That lowers the base mark to 70% of its full value. It's possible that some judges not see that error or might think there were enough good qualities of the jump to balance out the GOE reduction. But the skater would still lose points in the base mark -- the element will still be worth less than a fully rotated triple.

    Occasionally judges will make mistakes. But can you really find examples where there's a significant error, obvious error, like a step out or downgrade and almost half the judges give scores better than -1?

    On jump combinations it's a little more likely, if the first jump is really good and the second jump is good in most of its phases, or vice versa.

  10. #10
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,825
    Quote Originally Posted by chillyfranz View Post
    I agree here. But what happens next?
    Well, what happens next is that they take the average of all the judges' scores. If 5 judges give -1 GOE and four judges give 0 GOE, then after throwing out highest and lowest that averages out to -0.57 GOE for the element.

    This is not alarming to me, any more than it was alarming under 6ordinal judging for one judge to give a 5.6 and another judge give a 5.7.

    Joesitz has offered the example of competitive diving. The judges score each dive from 0 to 10, there is a mark for difficulty, then the to marks are combined (by multiplying, in the case of diving.) I look at the element scores in figure skating the same way. The judges grade the quality of each element from -3 (terrible) to +3 (outstanding). This is added to the "difficulty score" (base value) for the total score for the element.

    I believe this was the original idea of the CoP.

    However, what happened, I think, was that the judges were not always in agreement as to what constitutes excellent quality. In particular, judges were letting skaters get away with bad mistakes without penalty. So little by little the ISU has whittled away at the autonomy of the judges, writing increasingly detailed rules about just what faults should result in negative GOEs and just what features should count on the positive side of the scale.

  11. #11
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,581
    Too many of the variation of GOEs by individual judges, when judges are asked to defend their mark they find any way to justify it.
    At first when I read this, I thought that to minimize the mistake of the judges who might have given +1 instead of -1 GOE even by accident, a good thing would be the CoP software to give the judge a restricted GOE option, once the element is called, also his execution circumstances would be called. Like if it is an obvious step out, travel spin etc, and the judge might have missed it, someone would make sure that it didnt matter if judge was looking elsewhere. Someone would call not only the element but also the range of Goe this element could get, so the software depending on the error of the element could give them the option of 0, -1 etc Goe but not the option of +3 (for example), like they can pick from narrowed down options the GOE depending on the element execution. Or the oposite in a great element the judge wouldn't put by accident 0, or -1.

    But then I thought the one who would call the quality or the error of the element to narrow down the GOE options is also open to human error, and it would be a plus time consumption, and it is better to have 9 judges with one mistake possibility than one caller with the same error possibility(like what happens now with UR and edge calls), cause at the end judges would end up just pushing buttons.

  12. #12
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,825
    ^ I agree heartily with your second paragraph.

  13. #13
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,717
    Basically the tech panel make verifiable yes or no calls, with video aid if necessary, though video use is specifically limited by ISU rules. The judges make human judgment on quality, with guidelines and bullet points. Having 9 of them make individual errors or biases less influential on the eventual marks .

    Judges are highly trained and I don't see them as inherently evil and/or incompetent. They don't need to be robots in straight jacket just because many people think their own judgement is the absolute truth.

    I don't think figure skating as a sport should be a popularity based reality show type competition.

    As for
    Too many of the variation of GOEs by individual judges, when judges are asked to defend their mark they find any way to justify it.
    just because a statement gets written and quoted, it doesn't automatically become a fact .

  14. #14
    chillyfranz
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post

    just because a statement gets written and quoted, it doesn't automatically become a fact .
    I think for FS singles, there should be understanding for individual judges on how to award a goe vs. what the technical panel has punished. If some judge score an error as -2 and some score as +1 on the same element of the same skater there is a problem here. It might mean the judge who gave +1 did because he/she thought the technical pannel already punished the skater for the error whereas the judge who score -2 on the same element did not take into account the technical panel who already punished the skater for the erorr in the base value. I know all judges have the opinions, but a -2 GOEand a +1 on the same element is something strange. I don't understand your post

  15. #15
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,717
    chillyfranz, what I have issue with are

    1. your originally stated that

    Too many of the variation of GOEs by individual judges, when judges are asked to defend their mark they find any way to justify it.
    There are two claims here that weren't backed up, especially that judges find any way to justify and defend their marks, because I really don't see how you could know this as a fact. I am open to you demonstating these to be true but they have not been established yet to me.

    2. Senoirita then proceeded with this statement as a matter of fact to formulate thoughts and resolutions. No logic or solutions are ever valid based on a false premise, or one that is still questionable in need of supporting facts.

    As to the possibility of a double penalty with a tech call, I believe one of our very knowledgeable posters here have explained the procedure how the tech panel makes a firm call and how they immediately flag one to be verified. Judges are not kept in the dark.

    Overall, I think the ISU officials are not particularly stupid so as to have missed most of what fans would have thought of and have concerns with. What would occur easily to a fan would have easily occured to them already. Sure sometimes rules have to be changed and tweaked after real life application. Unintended consequences have to be dealt with and new intended consequences are to be worked into the rules. It is a on going process that the IJS allows.

    Judges are human, so a varietion can happen either because they do have different values or even because one misses or sees something other don't. That's why there are guidelines and there is a panel of 9 from different countries.

    Judging - not perfect, nor is it hopelessly stupid and flawed in every way. When such base asumption is used as a premise of all discussions, it's hard to come up with useful and constructive contributions to improve the system, assuming that is the objective.

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •