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Thread: Flutzing

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    Flutzing

    With the Japanese Nationals having just been completed I was once again alerted to the fact that many skaters do not have a true lutz. Kanako and Mao take off from a clear inside edge and Akiko's is only slightly better. Even on the men's - Daisuke and Oda seem to take off from only slight outside edges. Looks like heaps of girls from the USA do it too - maybe it has to do with the fact that many were brought up in the 6.0 era where flutzing was not as harshly punished, or maybe it has to do with coaching.

    Just wondering.

    Please note: this isn't a thread to bash Japanese skaters, as I now realise that many skaters from many countries have issues as Miki88 kindly pointed out. My apologies for any misunderstandings.
    To the moderators, please change the title of this thread so as to not offend anyone.
    Last edited by Marrymeyunakim; 12-28-2010 at 11:50 AM.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Flutzing is a problem in every country. My guess? Triple lutzes are just plain hard.

    I understand that Mao took the 3lutz out of her programs for a while though because she kept getting edge calls on them. I thought she was supposed to be trying to fix that this year. Anyone have any insight on how that quest is going?

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    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Flutzing is a problem in every country. My guess? Triple lutzes are just plain hard.
    I am pretty sure that flutzing has also been in the history of American ladies. (Two previous Olympic Champions flutzed)

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    Tons of skaters flutz, nationality has little do with it.
    Most of the American skaters have edge issues as well: Zhang, Gao, Nagasu, Wagner all flutz; Zawazki has a lip.
    Leonova, Sotnikova, Makarova all have had edge calls internationally in the past on their lutzes; Tuktamysheva, Agafonova and Shelepen on their flips.

    This strikes me as a thread to try and bash Japanese skaters with little actual basis.
    Last edited by oleada; 12-28-2010 at 11:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Tons of skaters flutz, nationality has little do with it.
    Most of the American skaters have edge issues as well: Zhang, Gao, Nagasu, Wagner all flutz; Zawazki has a lip.
    Leonova, Sotnikova, Makarova all have had edge calls internationally in the past on their lutzes; Tuktamysheva, Agafonova and Shelepen on their flips.

    This strikes me as a thread to try and bash Japanese skaters with little actual basis.
    If you think this was a thread to bash Japanese skaters, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

    That said, yes it does seem like tonnes of skaters flutz... just when you consider Japan as a dominant nation in skating with some of its brightest stars having technical issues on this one jump, it may be because there are issues I am unaware of. And, with all due respect, you've given examples of a lot of junior skaters who have not accomplished nearly as much as the likes of Mao and Takahashi, who are all-time greats in my book.

    Yet many of its skaters have great triple loops. For Mao, it's her money jump and it hardly ever fails her. Why?
    Last edited by Marrymeyunakim; 12-28-2010 at 11:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    Tons of skaters flutz, nationality has little do with it.
    Most of the American skaters have edge issues as well: Zhang, Gao, Nagasu, Wagner all flutz; Zawazki has a lip.
    Leonova, Sotnikova, Makarova all have had edge calls internationally in the past on their lutzes; Tuktamysheva, Agafonova and Shelepen on their flips.

    This strikes me as a thread to try and bash Japanese skaters with little actual basis.
    I agree, especially when you consider this sentence "Is there a culture in Japan which teaches this poor technique?".

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    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrymeyunakim View Post
    If you think this was a thread to bash Japanese skaters, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

    That said, yes it does seem like tonnes of skaters flutz... just when you consider Japan as a dominant nation in skating with some of its brightest stars having technical issues on this one jump, it may be because there are issues I am unaware of.

    Yet many of its skaters have great triple loops. For Mao, it's her money jump and it hardly ever fails her. Why?
    I think the main reason is because the ISU has overlooked this issue for so long. It was only around 2007-2008 that they started giving the edge calls and mandatory deductions. Before, it was just negative GOE and it depended on the judge. It was even more lenient under 6.0, so a lot of skaters got away with flutzes. A lot of the top Japanese skaters started their careers under the 6.0, so it's not that suprising. Same for the American skaters. Kanako is an exception but her coach is Yamada and almost all of her students have flutz issues. I agree this is not an nationality issue at all. It's sort of an epidemic in skating.
    Last edited by miki88; 12-28-2010 at 11:27 AM.

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    So it might be a coaching issue then. If I recall correctly, Michelle Kwan (almost) flutzed her lutzes, and Nagasu does the same, and they were both coached by Carroll from an early age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I am pretty sure that flutzing has also been in the history of American ladies. (Two previous Olympic Champions flutzed)
    Yea and Nicole Bobek was the flutz trailblazer lol
    still love her though

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    I think it may have something to do with young skaters and their parents wanting to see obvious achievements of doing impressive jumps in a hurry. The not so obvious problems in techniques get overlooked or initially ignored but become hard to overcome later. Girls are so precocious in figure skating these days, so the competitiveness and the pressure must be great. Men flutz too, but not as often. They have more time to learn and less adjustments to body changes to cope with during the process.

    On the whole, I find the Japanese coped with COP better than the Americans so it's a little surprising to see this many flutzes from them again. Also the tech panel may just have gotten tougher and tougher. How are the Russian babes doing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrymeyunakim View Post
    With the Japanese Nationals having just been completed I was once again alerted to the fact that many skaters from such a powerhouse nation do not have a true lutz. Kanako and Mao take off from a clear inside edge and Akiko's is only slightly better. Even on the men's - Daisuke and Oda seem to take off from only slight outside edges.

    Is there a culture in Japan which teaches this poor technique? Just wondering. Miki Ando seems to have a pure lutz, which breaks the trend.

    Please note: this isn't a thread to bash Japanese skaters, as I now realise that many skaters from many countries have issues as Miki88 kindly pointed out. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

    No, there is no culture in Japan for flutzing, but like the US, imo, there is a rush to be the best. Developing a true Lutz takes time and lot of practice for the takeoff as well as jumping into a counter rotation position. The jump has been misconstrued despite the clear definition of the element.

    The ISU perpetuates the Flutz by calling it a Wrong Edge Take-off when in fact, the take off any jump is what gives a jump a name. So without a defined take-off whatever jump was intended did not occur, and very often one sees two Flips in the same competition. If there is no base values for an unnamed jump, the Wrong Unknown Jump should register a 0 zero without going into the positive aspects of a second Flip which did not even show a counter rotation because a Flip has no counter rotation.

    I happen to think that most European skaters do indeed execute proper Lutzes.

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    There's a reason a Lutz is worth 6 points and is second only to the triple axel. If you look at the ladies who had a true lutz back in the day (Tonya Harding, for one), you notice that they take their time with the edge and really have to set it up. I'm impressed with the ladies who do a true lutz with steps cause I would imagine that would be tough to suddenly switch to that outside edge.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrymeyunakim View Post
    So it might be a coaching issue then. If I recall correctly, Michelle Kwan (almost) flutzed her lutzes, and Nagasu does the same, and they were both coached by Carroll from an early age.

    Carroll started coaching Nagasu last year.

    No, there is no culture in Japan for flutzing, but like the US, imo, there is a rush to be the best.
    I agree and it seems the judges did overlook it for a while. Now, it's catching up to some skaters like Mao and Mirai to a lesser extent as her lutzes are borderline.

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    I've been wondering since the so-called Flutz is so common why has it not been named and recognized, maybe even made legal with assigned base value. Of course then there will still be all the important differentiation to be made by the Tech Panel and other keen eyes.

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I've been wondering since the so-called Flutz is so common why has it not been named and recognized, maybe even made legal with assigned base value. Of course then there will still be all the important differentiation to be made by the Tech Panel and other keen eyes.
    I think because it's a jump that is devrived from bad technique. Same with the Lip. I'm sure the ISU don't want to legitimize bad technique.

    That said, I think there is a thread somewhere where there was discussion of the develop of middle-ground jump. But I don't remember what posters called the jump.

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