Flutzing

Marrymeyunakim · Dec 28, 2010

With the Japanese Nationals having just been completed I was once again alerted to the fact that many skaters do not have a true lutz. Kanako and Mao take off from a clear inside edge and Akiko's is only slightly better. Even on the men's - Daisuke and Oda seem to take off from only slight outside edges. Looks like heaps of girls from the USA do it too - maybe it has to do with the fact that many were brought up in the 6.0 era where flutzing was not as harshly punished, or maybe it has to do with coaching.

Just wondering.

Please note: this isn't a thread to bash Japanese skaters, as I now realise that many skaters from many countries have issues as Miki88 kindly pointed out. My apologies for any misunderstandings.
To the moderators, please change the title of this thread so as to not offend anyone.

Layfan · Dec 28, 2010

Flutzing is a problem in every country. My guess? Triple lutzes are just plain hard.

I understand that Mao took the 3lutz out of her programs for a while though because she kept getting edge calls on them. I thought she was supposed to be trying to fix that this year. Anyone have any insight on how that quest is going?

miki88 · Dec 28, 2010

Layfan said:
Flutzing is a problem in every country. My guess? Triple lutzes are just plain hard.

I am pretty sure that flutzing has also been in the history of American ladies.

(Two previous Olympic Champions flutzed)

oleada · Dec 28, 2010

Tons of skaters flutz, nationality has little do with it.
Most of the American skaters have edge issues as well: Zhang, Gao, Nagasu, Wagner all flutz; Zawazki has a lip.
Leonova, Sotnikova, Makarova all have had edge calls internationally in the past on their lutzes; Tuktamysheva, Agafonova and Shelepen on their flips.

This strikes me as a thread to try and bash Japanese skaters with little actual basis.

Marrymeyunakim · Dec 28, 2010

oleada said:
Tons of skaters flutz, nationality has little do with it.
Most of the American skaters have edge issues as well: Zhang, Gao, Nagasu, Wagner all flutz; Zawazki has a lip.
Leonova, Sotnikova, Makarova all have had edge calls internationally in the past on their lutzes; Tuktamysheva, Agafonova and Shelepen on their flips.

This strikes me as a thread to try and bash Japanese skaters with little actual basis.

If you think this was a thread to bash Japanese skaters, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

That said, yes it does seem like tonnes of skaters flutz... just when you consider Japan as a dominant nation in skating with some of its brightest stars having technical issues on this one jump, it may be because there are issues I am unaware of. And, with all due respect, you've given examples of a lot of junior skaters who have not accomplished nearly as much as the likes of Mao and Takahashi, who are all-time greats in my book.

Yet many of its skaters have great triple loops. For Mao, it's her money jump and it hardly ever fails her. Why?

chloepoco · Dec 28, 2010

oleada said:
Tons of skaters flutz, nationality has little do with it.
Most of the American skaters have edge issues as well: Zhang, Gao, Nagasu, Wagner all flutz; Zawazki has a lip.
Leonova, Sotnikova, Makarova all have had edge calls internationally in the past on their lutzes; Tuktamysheva, Agafonova and Shelepen on their flips.

This strikes me as a thread to try and bash Japanese skaters with little actual basis.

I agree, especially when you consider this sentence "Is there a culture in Japan which teaches this poor technique?".

miki88 · Dec 28, 2010

Marrymeyunakim said:
If you think this was a thread to bash Japanese skaters, you're wrong. Plain and simple.

That said, yes it does seem like tonnes of skaters flutz... just when you consider Japan as a dominant nation in skating with some of its brightest stars having technical issues on this one jump, it may be because there are issues I am unaware of.

Yet many of its skaters have great triple loops. For Mao, it's her money jump and it hardly ever fails her. Why?

I think the main reason is because the ISU has overlooked this issue for so long. It was only around 2007-2008 that they started giving the edge calls and mandatory deductions. Before, it was just negative GOE and it depended on the judge. It was even more lenient under 6.0, so a lot of skaters got away with flutzes. A lot of the top Japanese skaters started their careers under the 6.0, so it's not that suprising. Same for the American skaters. Kanako is an exception but her coach is Yamada and almost all of her students have flutz issues. I agree this is not an nationality issue at all. It's sort of an epidemic in skating.

Marrymeyunakim · Dec 28, 2010

So it might be a coaching issue then. If I recall correctly, Michelle Kwan (almost) flutzed her lutzes, and Nagasu does the same, and they were both coached by Carroll from an early age.

reynycpr · Dec 28, 2010

miki88 said:
I am pretty sure that flutzing has also been in the history of American ladies. (Two previous Olympic Champions flutzed)

Yea and Nicole Bobek was the flutz trailblazer lol
still love her though

Violet Bliss · Dec 28, 2010

I think it may have something to do with young skaters and their parents wanting to see obvious achievements of doing impressive jumps in a hurry. The not so obvious problems in techniques get overlooked or initially ignored but become hard to overcome later. Girls are so precocious in figure skating these days, so the competitiveness and the pressure must be great. Men flutz too, but not as often. They have more time to learn and less adjustments to body changes to cope with during the process.

On the whole, I find the Japanese coped :laugh:

with COP better than the Americans so it's a little surprising to see this many flutzes from them again. Also the tech panel may just have gotten tougher and tougher. How are the Russian babes doing?

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 28, 2010

Marrymeyunakim said:
With the Japanese Nationals having just been completed I was once again alerted to the fact that many skaters from such a powerhouse nation do not have a true lutz. Kanako and Mao take off from a clear inside edge and Akiko's is only slightly better. Even on the men's - Daisuke and Oda seem to take off from only slight outside edges.

Is there a culture in Japan which teaches this poor technique? Just wondering. Miki Ando seems to have a pure lutz, which breaks the trend.

Please note: this isn't a thread to bash Japanese skaters, as I now realise that many skaters from many countries have issues as Miki88 kindly pointed out. My apologies for any misunderstandings.

No, there is no culture in Japan for flutzing, but like the US, imo, there is a rush to be the best. Developing a true Lutz takes time and lot of practice for the takeoff as well as jumping into a counter rotation position. The jump has been misconstrued despite the clear definition of the element.

The ISU perpetuates the Flutz by calling it a Wrong Edge Take-off when in fact, the take off any jump is what gives a jump a name. So without a defined take-off whatever jump was intended did not occur, and very often one sees two Flips in the same competition. If there is no base values for an unnamed jump, the Wrong Unknown Jump should register a 0 zero without going into the positive aspects of a second Flip which did not even show a counter rotation because a Flip has no counter rotation.

I happen to think that most European skaters do indeed execute proper Lutzes.

Mrs. P · Dec 28, 2010

There's a reason a Lutz is worth 6 points and is second only to the triple axel. If you look at the ladies who had a true lutz back in the day (Tonya Harding, for one), you notice that they take their time with the edge and really have to set it up. I'm impressed with the ladies who do a true lutz with steps cause I would imagine that would be tough to suddenly switch to that outside edge.

Layfan · Dec 28, 2010

Marrymeyunakim said:
So it might be a coaching issue then. If I recall correctly, Michelle Kwan (almost) flutzed her lutzes, and Nagasu does the same, and they were both coached by Carroll from an early age.

Carroll started coaching Nagasu last year.

No, there is no culture in Japan for flutzing, but like the US, imo, there is a rush to be the best.

I agree and it seems the judges did overlook it for a while. Now, it's catching up to some skaters like Mao and Mirai to a lesser extent as her lutzes are borderline.

Violet Bliss · Dec 28, 2010

I've been wondering since the so-called Flutz is so common why has it not been named and recognized, maybe even made legal with assigned base value. Of course then there will still be all the important differentiation to be made by the Tech Panel and other keen eyes.

Mrs. P · Dec 28, 2010

SkateFiguring said:
I've been wondering since the so-called Flutz is so common why has it not been named and recognized, maybe even made legal with assigned base value. Of course then there will still be all the important differentiation to be made by the Tech Panel and other keen eyes.

I think because it's a jump that is devrived from bad technique. Same with the Lip. I'm sure the ISU don't want to legitimize bad technique.

That said, I think there is a thread somewhere where there was discussion of the develop of middle-ground jump. But I don't remember what posters called the jump.

fairly4 · Dec 28, 2010

yes, you would think under the CoP they would catch the flutzing,wrong edge takeoff and landing but they don't . ONly once in a while.
under the COP They would Catch everyones, Flutzes, lipping, wrong edge, ur's etc. Both they only catch the ones (skaters they don't want up on top) they others they let go.
japan nationals yes, miki should have gotten caught for ur's. flutzes, lips, like mao and akiko, daisuke.
not to mention at the us nationals, canada nationals. russian nationals, all nationals, all skating events. Look closely. The surprise is how much they actually get away with.
WHo gets nailed the most (caught the most).
but it is a JUDGED sports. and as such they only catch who they want, not when , but who.

blue dog · Dec 28, 2010

Marrymeyunakim said:
With the Japanese Nationals having just been completed I was once again alerted to the fact that many skaters do not have a true lutz. Kanako and Mao take off from a clear inside edge and Akiko's is only slightly better. Even on the men's - Daisuke and Oda seem to take off from only slight outside edges. Looks like heaps of girls from the USA do it too - maybe it has to do with the fact that many were brought up in the 6.0 era where flutzing was not as harshly punished, or maybe it has to do with coaching.

Just wondering.

To be quite blunt, have you tried a lutz, even on the ground without skates? The lutz, unlike any other figure skating jump (perhaps the walley and toe walley, but skaters do not compete those at the highest levels) is counter-rotational. You literally have to defy physics to complete a true SINGLE lutz, imagine how much harder a double or a triple lutz will be! Staying on that back outside edge is difficult, even for the skaters who have a high success rate with the lutz. It isn't a coaching or nationality issue, it's a mother nature issue.

Also, think of it this way, the lutz owns its own curve--meaning, no other jump goes in that direction. Salchow, Loop, Flip, Toe--all go in the same direction going in and coming out (salchow/flip from a back inside, toe/loop back outside). The lutz (and the axel) does not, regardless if you are clockwise or counterclockwise.

Maybe, it's more of an age thing than a coaching/nationality issue? A lot of women get better lutzes as they age, probably because their bodies are settled, and they don't have to mess with the puberty monster. So, in this way, also, it's a mother nature thing!

Also, we have discussed the flutz from almost every angle:

2008 - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...-lip-quot-jumps-were-ratified&highlight=flutz

2008 - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?19178-3-for-flutzing&highlight=flutz

2007 - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?18120-Flutz-issue&highlight=flutz

2007 - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...s-vs.-Die-hards-a-dying-sport&highlight=flutz

2004 - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?3952-Lutz-or-Flutz&highlight=flutz

I'm sure if the board was around in the nineties, we'd have plenty more (there were actually plenty more, even a few on flutzing men!)

mskater93 · Dec 28, 2010

Then there is it's counterpart - the lip which the OP's favorite skater has been called for on multiple occasions. That must be in the culture that she came from. LOL!

gourry · Dec 28, 2010

It's simply lutz is that hard I guess. So my question is that why they don't raise the base value of lutz jump when there are actually only handful of skaters who actually execute it properly?

And same goes for 3-3 jumps.

Violet Bliss · Dec 28, 2010

Mrs. P said:
I think because it's a jump that is devrived from bad technique. Same with the Lip. I'm sure the ISU don't want to legitimize bad technique.

It's obviously a more natural jump. So we should say Lutz was derived from an easy jump and made difficult.

I'm just arguing for argument's sake here, :laugh:

as can be quite easily witnessed as one of my tendencies. :biggrin:

Flutzing

Marrymeyunakim

Layfan

miki88

oleada

Marrymeyunakim

chloepoco

miki88

Marrymeyunakim

reynycpr

Violet Bliss

Joesitz (RIP)

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Layfan

Violet Bliss

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

fairly4

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

mskater93

gourry

Violet Bliss

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