Flutzing

^ Thank you. You must have a photographic memory or else an incredibly complete and well-cataloged video library to come up with footage of everything that has every been done on ice!

OK, that wasn't even close. Not sure he could even have pulled a proper triple out of that.

I have to say in general, I like to see a really well-done textbook basic jump than an "original" weird entry or embellishment. I would be very pleased to leave off the +2T+2Lo thing that only mars a good triple Flip by trying to stretch it into a three-jump combo.

What do you think of the idea of combining the Lutz andf flip into a single jump category? This would satisfy the complaints of purists like Joesitz who object to attaching the name "Lutz" to a jump that does not fully satisfy the definition, and a skater could still do two Lutzes, or two flips, or one of each at the skater's choice (clear counter-rotation could be a + GOE bullet.) It would also take away the need for video replay. The tech panel would call what they saw and each judge would likewise score what he/she saw.

Edited to add: I have another question. Are there some skaters who are so strongly right-footed or left-footed that they can only do a jump off their favorite leg? So they can do a loop, say, but never can learn to do a Salchow?

vlaurend said:

One of the major differences between you and Mskater is that Mskater really knows the rules, whereas I have never seen you go to the trouble to really learn all of the IJS rules. Instead, you just stay fixated on one or two details (like flutzes) and repeat your opinion about their categorical incorrectness over and over, without taking into account the rest of the rules or how the skater's final score is affected. I believe you said you used to skate. You should skate again. It will give you a little much-needed perspective.

I don't think any of us skaters are 100% happy with the rules, and it is seriously annoying that they keep changing every season. However, the jump rules seem to be pretty fair right now, IMO.

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Good observation. I really don't have to study the Rules since they are thrust at me constantly. However, I am aware of the Rules and very much aware of the definitions of the elements.

One has to realize, it is a Forum and everyone may contribute his views. One doesn't have to change his views.

Actually, I've gained some knowledge from opposing views, but there are some views I can not accept as random official changes to the sports history.

I'm much too old to skate again and to make matters worse, I have the Henie ailment.

mskater93 said:

Again, if you don't like the rules, either take your ball and go home, or go about getting into a position that can affect the change you are looking for in them.

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The Forum is the ideal place to praise or complain. Why should everyone be homogenized?

On landing the Loop Jump on the wrong edge landing or should it be called an under rotated Loop Jump, why not let it be another official jump with a different name?

Mathman said:

What do you think of the idea of combining the Lutz andf flip into a single jump category? This would satisfy the complaints of purists like Joesitz who object to attaching the name "Lutz" to a jump that does not fully satisfy the definition, and a skater could still do two Lutzes, or two flips, or one of each at the skater's choice (clear counter-rotation could be a + GOE bullet.) It would also take away the need for video replay. The tech panel would call what they saw and each judge would likewise score what he/she saw.

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I have to say MM, just from my personal perspective I would absolutely hate to see the flip and lutz merged into a single jump category. Both jumps are beautiful and very different and there are enough skaters that can each do each jump that it doesn't make sense to merge them. I also think that each new generation of skaters and the coaches that work with them will encourage this from the ground up. Historically wrong edge take offs were not seemingly penalised. Towards the end of 6.0 flutzes were talked about a lot and we couldn't really tell if the judges were penalising it or not. Lips I don't think really were. No we can see the reductions and calls and I think this will (or at least I hope that this will) mean that more skaters are taught from their singles right up to their triples to do the flip and lutz correctly

Mathman said:

Edited to add: I have another question. Are there some skaters who are so strongly right-footed or left-footed that they can only do a jump off their favorite leg? So they can do a loop, say, but never can learn to do a Salchow?

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I think every skater has one foot they prefer over the other but I don't think this translates to jumps. It certainly does for me on turns or steps. One foot or leg is usually worse than the other. For jumps, the thing that I have noticed is that since you tend to learn forward spins first and then backspins, the left leg (or right for CW rotators) tends to get better trained at the very start since you spin on it and do the waltz and salchow off the same leg and you also pick with that leg on the toe-loop. Then to move on you have to learn to take off on the right leg, which is often weaker since you are not likely to have worked much on a backspin by that point or even if you have it is not as developed as the forward spins.

By the time you are talking triples I don't think it's a left or right leg preference and more a toe or edge jump preference.

Ant

Joesitz said:

The Forum is the ideal place to praise or complain. Why should everyone be homogenized?

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Joe, I don't think you understand why people are mad at you on this thread. It has nothing to do with differing views about wrong edge take-offs.

It is that you insult people who disagree with you when you say things like, "Oh, you just always follow the rules like a good little tin soldier and never think for yourself." You can disagree with the post without making unflattering comments regarding your opinion of the poster.

So is it a flutz or flip?

^

antmanb said:

I have to say MM, just from my personal perspective I would absolutely hate to see the flip and lutz merged into a single jump category. Both jumps are beautiful and very different and there are enough skaters that can each do each jump that it doesn't make sense to merge them. I also think that each new generation of skaters and the coaches that work with them will encourage this from the ground up.

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Here is the reason why this idea has some appeal to me. The worst thing that can happen to a sport is that the referees become the focus instead of the athletes. I think we have to guard against figure skating becoming a sport whose outcome is determined by a committee of grey-beards huddled over an instant replay monitor instead of by the performances of the the skaters.

Recently a pitcher for the Detoit Tigers threw a perfect game -- except that the umpire blew the call on the last batter. The banner headlines were about the umpire, not about the marvelous pitching performance.

If there were categories of jumps for scoring purposes, with perhaps several different species ( ) within each category, would that necessarily discourage skaters from learning two different jumps in the same category? The balanced program rules would say, in your eight passes you have to do at least one jump in each category (either a toe loop or a toe walley, for instance). After that, you can fill the rest of the boxes however you like, including cool variations of jumps that you already did.

True, it would be possible for a skater to learn the flip and than sign off and never try to learn the Lutz. But they can do that anyway. Mao Asada just won a World Championshiip without doing a Lutz. Yu-na Kim won the Olympic gold medal withoiut doing a loop, and Evan Lysacek won without a quad.

Or we could have a separate rule (similar to the rule that says one of the jumps must be some type of Axel) that requires a counter-rotational jump. A skater could satisfy this by doing a Lutz as one of his two Category 1 jumps (a double if he can't do a triple), or by doing, say, a single Walley in the loop-walley category. (I haven't thought through how many points that should get. Plus now we are back to having the tech callers decide whether the proper amount of counter-rotation was achieved to satisfy the requirement.)

Mathman said:

Joe, I don't think you understand why people are mad at you on this thread. It has nothing to do with differing views about wrong edge take-offs.

It is that you insult people who disagree with you when you say things like, "Oh, you just always follow the rules like a good little tin soldier and never think for yourself." You can disagree with the post without making unflattering comments regarding your opinion of the poster.

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C'mon MM. I don't try to insult anyone but whenever I have an opinion that a rule is not realistic, like choosing to land on what ever edge one wants to when completing a loop jump. I am insulting the rule not the writer. The writers continue to enforce me to believe in rules and I should not have any opinions about the rules. They are correct in following the rules for themselves, but I no longer am a skater so I've become an arm chair critic.
I don't think people understand why I get tired of hearing about the rules which I know, but write only about those which I find curious. The writers, on the other hand, could explain what it is about new rules that they admire instead of just saying its the rules that matter. It's a discussion matter - not a demand for change matter. If they are competitive skaters, I would apologize if it hurts their feelings.

My style of writing is completely Rogerian and I see how that may irritate some people.

seniorita said:

So is it a flutz or flip?

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If it toes-off on a back inside edge, there is no way it could be a lutz and it should not get the lutz's base value before the minus GoEs.

^ I'm telling ya', there is an easy solution. Just do not write the words Lutz or flip on the official score card. The tech specialist calls (to the data entry operator) "triple jump, category III." Then each judge scores the jump that he or she sees. If the judge sees a flip (clear inside edge), then the skater gets GOEs according to whether it was a good flip or a bad one.

If the judge sees a Lutz (outside edge), then the judge gives 0 GOE if it meets all the requirements for a proper Lutz, negative GOEs if there is some kind of error, like a two-footed landing, and plus GOE if there were outstanding features to the jump.

There would be no need for a video replay of anything. In the case of a questionable edge, the judges might not be in agreements as to whether they just saw a Lutz or a flip, but that's life. Sometimes people disagree. In any case, if you really can't tell what the edge was (a "flatz') it ought o get negative GOE anyway.

^
Nah even more easy is that one day I ll become so clever that I will add intelligent sensors directly on just one super blade, accelerometers, altimeters, inclinometers, position, rotary, capacitive, mhd intelligent sensors to send the answer on your board and the judges will give ONLY the PCS (until we can make also a system that will translate their brain signals for choreo, presentation, interpretation). Then they would only need to mark the transitions.