Flutzing

Gourry: Being able to do a clean triple lutz triple toe already gives you a lot of points doesn't it? Look at Yuna vs. Mao. Yuna's triple lutz triple toe helped making her difficult to beat - even when Mao landed a triple axel.

Layfan said:

Gourry: Being able to do a clean triple lutz triple toe already gives you a lot of points doesn't it? Look at Yuna vs. Mao. Yuna's triple lutz triple toe helped making her difficult to beat - even when Mao landed a triple axel.

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Let's leave Yuna and Mao there because it almost always blur issues.

What I wanted to say is that base value is about the difficulty of the jumps, right? And if they see the base value doesn't do the jump its justice, they change it, right? That's why they raised the base value of certain jumps(loops and triple axel IIRC) and lowered some others this season. But they left lutz in the process.
And it seems-and many people here seem to agree undoubtedly- lutz is simply quite difficult jump indeed! So why not adjust it once more? How does 6.5 point for that jump sound? It is one difficult jump!
And since now there is << and <, more skaters are supposed to be incouraged to try 3-3 combinations even though they are not absolutely sure about it. And how many 3-3s did we see from the ladies this season? Hm. Not as many as we expected. So, that IS difficult, then why not reward it with more base value or with some factoring, say x1.1 bonus factor?

By the way, name a flutz as a new jump is kind of funny idea, because it will incourage those skaters who can do lutz and flip to learn this whole new 'flutz' and in the end it will actually benefit THEM....? I mean, come on, flutzers can't do lutz but who said lutzers can't learn flutz? Everybody knows flutz is easier than lutz. All they need to do is just a little wiggle before doing flip.


ETA:
The reason why lutz is difficult is imo that if you do lutz properly, there can't be any prerotation.(see Yuna's, Miki's, and Julia's if you didn't notice that.) Which means you need to rotate at least 2 3/4 to get it ratified with 1/4 acceptable underrotation. I read here at Goldenskate often times that a triple jump is actually 2 1/4 rotation in the air with actual(but not ideal I should say) prerotation and acceptable underrotation. That makes triple axel 2 3/4 rotation if you do the math. So, by this logic, triple lutz and triple axel have same rotation in the air!! And their base value difference is how much right now? Isn't it amazing?

^^ Yeah, but if the "new" jump is worth 1.5 points, no competitive skater/jumper will want to waste a jumping box with that. Condescending consolation prize maybe or something to fill the requirements for low level skaters.

OK. Just arguing again. Not realling promoting an idea.


eta that I did raise the possiblity of a history making quad Flutz in the Base Value thread!

Flutzing and Lipping didn't start nailing hard until 3 seasons ago. Most girls start learning to skate and jump when they are 5-6 years old and normally it will take at least 10 years before they reach eligible senior level. And then you have 2-3 years of window before the pubicty monster attack so most girls end up rushing the jump without profer technique. Men on the other hand have more time than girls so most learn to do proper lutz and flip.

I say by or after Sochi, most junior will have proper real lutz.

gourry said:

And since now there is << and <, more skaters are supposed to be incouraged to try 3-3 combinations even though they are not absolutely sure about it. And how many 3-3s did we see from the ladies this season? Hm. Not as many as we expected. So, that IS difficult, then why not reward it with more base value or with some factoring, say x1.1 bonus factor?

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This was proposed (a 10% bonus for combination jumps) at the ISU congress last year but was shot down

blue dog said:

To be quite blunt, have you tried a lutz, even on the ground without skates? The lutz, unlike any other figure skating jump (perhaps the walley and toe walley, but skaters do not compete those at the highest levels) is counter-rotational. You literally have to defy physics to complete a true SINGLE lutz, imagine how much harder a double or a triple lutz will be! Staying on that back outside edge is difficult, even for the skaters who have a high success rate with the lutz. It isn't a coaching or nationality issue, it's a mother nature issue.

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Then again, there are those who lip. Seeing as it's the Holiday break over here, I had a nearly empty session the other day and got to really observe my tracings. I noticed that I actually lip if I'm not very careful, but my Lutz has a continuous curve for which the edge deepens just before takeoff. Even a proper-edge takeoff flip for me will feature a slight s-curve, not unlike those seen for Caroline Zhang (on her flips last year, not sure about now). So while it seems like the majority of wrong-edge takeoffs occur for Lutzes, it seems like lips aren't generally seen as something as "serious", or perhaps they seem like a less prominent issue than flutzes, because the Lutz is seen as being more difficult. As for me, well, I'll always take a Lutz over a flip, any day! (I'll also take loops and Lutzes, and even flips, over toes and salchows anyday, but I digress!)

gourry said:

It's simply lutz is that hard I guess. So my question is that why they don't raise the base value of lutz jump when there are actually only handful of skaters who actually execute it properly? And same goes for 3-3 jumps.

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Once it is learned, it is not all that difficult. However, learning it takes time, and lots of practice. One should work on a perfect Single Lutz and then a perfect double Lutz before attempting the 3Lutz.

However, the ISU will allow you to turn it into a Flip so you will get partial credit.

Just looked at the protocols from the recent Japanese nationals LP: http://skatingjapan.jp/National/2010-2011/fs/national_e/data0205.pdf

11 out of 15 skaters who attempted lutz jumps got "e" calls. Anyone got similar statistics on the Americans?

^^not as bad as that but at 2010 U.S. nationals 8 of the top 16 in the 22 field recieved either a '!' or a 'e' call on their lutz in the LP, including the givens, Cohen, Nagasu, Gao, Wagner, Liang, Zhang. There were also a few to receive '!' on their flip, a couple had 'e' on their flips

IMHO the ISU has painted itself into a corner with respect to how to score a flutz.

On the one hand, a system based on absolute scoring cannot give points for what you intended to do or attempted to do. If you hoped to do a Lutz jump, tried to do a Lutz jump, prayed please God let me do a Lutz jump -- but then you don't -- how can any scoring system give you points for that?

On the other hand, the CoP gives out points for everything that you accomplish. If you launch yourself into the air somehow, turn around three times, and land on your feet, you have done something. You haven't doen a Lutz jump, but you have done something. So you should get some points, right?

There is only one way out (Imaginary Pogue will shoot me for saying this). That is for the ISU to frankly admit the the CoP is not logically consistent. So what? It has this in common with all human endeavor.

I disagree that the COP rewards everything done by a competing skater. Illegal jumps and other elements don't get points. Extra or repeated jumps are tossed or penalized. Sometime jumps not done are counted as +seq to fill a jumping box and limit what else a skater can do.

The trouble with a Flutz is that it defies the Lutz defination. So is it an illegal jump or a faulty Lutz to be penalized but still credited? Currently, it's scored as the latter.

SkateFiguring said:

Sometime jumps not done are counted as +seq to fill a jumping box and limit what else a skater can do.

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Isn't that an interesting feature of the CoP? You open with a triple flip, intending a triple flip/double toe combo. But you did not do a combo, so you only get credit for what you did, not for what you intended. So far so good.

Now later in the program you plan, and execute, a solo triple flip. This violates the rules. It is, in fact an illegal element. Logically speaking, it should get 0 points.

But instead, the CoP pretends that you did a second (unspecified) jump in sequence with the jump you actually did. It is scored as a sequence, even though there is nothing remotely "sequential" about it. You get "credit" for a sequence, even though you didn't do a sequence. This saves you from the rule about repeating jumps.

However, this doesn't seem right, so the CoP punishes the skater with an 20% penalty. The rule says 20% of both jumps in the sequence. But since their was only one jump in this "sequence," you end up with 80% of the one jump that you did.

Actually, I think that is a pretty clever way of handling the problem. I think it's a good rule...in the Bizarro Universe.

I think they should change the rule for the "phantom sequence" to this. If you only do one jump, then you can call it a "sequence" with the jump of your choice tacked on an the second (non-existent) jump. Everyone will be get 80% credit for a triple toe/quad Axel sequence.

^^

So, Mathman, what do you call the Universe in which every skater gets credits for phantom quad Axels? In that case, the more phantom sequences the better for a skater!

I think the Phantom Universe would be appropriate.

SkateFiguring said:

The trouble with a Flutz is that it defies the Lutz defination. So is it an illegal jump or a faulty Lutz to be penalized but still credited? Currently, it's scored as the latter.

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While I agree with you, that it should be considered illegal (an extra flip; Sarah Hughes in 2002 was "smart" in that she only attempted one lutz and one flip in her LP). However, the judges are using more than just the edge entering the jump to define what the jump is. Although judges cry out for originality, they're as human as you and I, and are looking for cues when judging a program-- the reason why a flutz is a faulty lutz and not an extra triple flip, is because the skater entered it with a long back outside edge, and at the very last second (when they thought no one was looking ) they switched to an inside edge. A lip is a faulty flip and not an extra lutz because a flip enters first from a forward outside three turn (or forward inside mohawk; your choice). That turn, believe it or not, helps define the as a flip as much as the back inside edge they're supposed to be on.

blue dog said:

While I agree with you, that it should be considered illegal (an extra flip; Sarah Hughes in 2002 was "smart" in that she only attempted one lutz and one flip in her LP).

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Why was she "smart" for attempting one flutz and one flip? :think:

Anyway, I wonder what firmware version the OP has.

FlattFan said:

Why was she "smart" for attempting one flutz and one flip? :think:

Anyway, I wonder what firmware version the OP has.

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She was a very blatant flutzer. By attempting one of each (the flip had the three turn entry), she wouldn't be accused of having an extra flip in her program.

blue dog said:

To be quite blunt, have you tried a lutz, even on the ground without skates? The lutz, unlike any other figure skating jump (perhaps the walley and toe walley, but skaters do not compete those at the highest levels) is counter-rotational. You literally have to defy physics to complete a true SINGLE lutz, imagine how much harder a double or a triple lutz will be! Staying on that back outside edge is difficult, even for the skaters who have a high success rate with the lutz. It isn't a coaching or nationality issue, it's a mother nature issue.

Also, think of it this way, the lutz owns its own curve--meaning, no other jump goes in that direction. Salchow, Loop, Flip, Toe--all go in the same direction going in and coming out (salchow/flip from a back inside, toe/loop back outside). The lutz (and the axel) does not, regardless if you are clockwise or counterclockwise.

Maybe, it's more of an age thing than a coaching/nationality issue? A lot of women get better lutzes as they age, probably because their bodies are settled, and they don't have to mess with the puberty monster. So, in this way, also, it's a mother nature thing!

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It's an age thing in that it relates to strength. I first took up skating in my mid-30's and when I went through the normal learning sequence of the single jumps, got the lutz quite easily (don't ask me about the eville loop though ). Landing a good clean lutz on about the 10th try. ALL jumps require technique, but I found that compared to the other jumps, a lutz required more pure strength to get clean takeoff, get up in the air, and then do full rotation. In contrast, most of the little girls I shared freestyle practice with struggled with the lutz, and were flutzing all over the place since they didn't quite have the power to do the jump properly without a little cheating and pre-rotation. Also lots of toe picks not placed far enough to the back--if that pick goes out too much to the side, you're going to produce a flutz. Couple of other issues: lutzes need SPEED--slowing down really diminishes this jump's prospects. And a lot of the lutz is getting around the mental "eek" of the counter-rotation feeling. You can't go half-heartedly into a lutz and expect a thing of beauty to come out of it.

A good coach will absolutely hammer their young students so they get every detail of their single lutzes strong, fast, and perfect, then move to do the same to their doubles, and only then try for the triples. Once your body gets used to feeling sloppy (f)lutz technique at any stage, it's a dilly to ever try to change, not to mention disruptive to one's competitive programs.

blue dog said:

She was a very blatant flutzer. By attempting one of each (the flip had the three turn entry), she wouldn't be accused of having an extra flip in her program.

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But she would be accused of having 2 flips, 2 loops, and 2 toes. I don't see how she was "smart" about that. still :think:

Mathman said:

I think they should change the rule for the "phantom sequence" to this. If you only do one jump, then you can call it a "sequence" with the jump of your choice tacked on an the second (non-existent) jump. Everyone will be get 80% credit for a triple toe/quad Axel sequence.

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Thank you MM for discussing the foibles of the sequences. The read is hilarious.
How much more can we watch the exceptions to the strict CoP rules in order to pamper the contestants?

Not long ago some fans thought you could do a Lutz counter rotation lean from a back inside edge but were never able to show an example of that. The balance of such would never hold true.

Some fans believe that one can always get credit for air turns no matter how they got into the air (that old barrel jumping feeling). Sloppy jump? who cares?

A Fall on a jump gets credit which defies the definition of a jump. It's ok, we need to pamper the contestants every which way.

My mind boggles with the figure skating exceptions one finds to definitions. A clean jump is just about the old 6.0 system. What a Sport this CoP is!