Alternative ways to determine Worlds roster

Joesitz said:

Thank you so much, Mrs. P. I was not aware of the changes.

1. Same as before: 30 in the SP; 24 in LP. So for the groupings: 5 for SP; 4 for LP.

1a That would mean "B" competitions count. hmmm.
1b. Why not? although I think some fans might want an all out battle on 1 competition from this year.
1c. That's the same as in previous years (betcha it's Austria)

2a. and 2b. is as we always knew it.
2c is a bit confusing to me. Can you give an example?
2d. I think what is being said, that if one top skater has a bye to the Worlds, the second skater still has to prove him/her self. That would be a big change if I'm reading correctly. I would think then, only the Winner of the previous Worlds' Federation can send more than one skater. Just guessing. I don't know.

Having a preliminary round to fill the slots is not new.

Click to expand...

1c. I don't think it's a qualifying competition, but a round that would be done at the beginning of Worlds competition.

2c. An example would be Yuna Kim in 2007 Worlds. Up to that point, the one skater from SK never placed well enough to send more than one skater. If Yuna had held on to her lead after the SP or even got Silver, South Korea could have sent three skaters for the following year, but since she got bronze, she only scored well enough to get two skaters. Since then SK has had two skaters, but the two skaters combine placements have never been enough to gain a third.

2008 -- Yuna (3rd) + Kim Na Young (19th) = 22 --> They keep two skaters.
2009 -- Yuna (1st) + Kim Na Young (17th) = 18 -- > Two skaters
2010 -- Yuna (2nd) + Min-Jung Kwak (22nd) = 24 ---> Two skaters.

2d. Right, but that also depends on how the federation did the year before. Japan actually gets three direct entries in the Ladies competition because the skaters who represented them were all in the top 18. The entries are bond to the country not to the skater. So though Murakami did not compete last year she will not have to "prove herself" because Akiko placed well enough to do so.
In contrast, in the men's Oda's huge SP bomb (where he placed 28th and didn't go to the FS) actually cost Japan a direct entry. So one Japanese skater would have to go prove himself. Ironically Oda actually has the highest world standing, so if the competition was held today, it would actually be Kozuka who would have to go the QR. There's a theory that they chose not to send Oda to 4CC to allow both Daisuke and Kozuka to earn enough points so it would be Oda (who cause the loss in the first place) who would skate the QR.

Yes, having a preliminary round is not new, but what I think is new is that 1.) Not everyone has to skate into it (namely top skaters -- kind of similar to the byes given to the top finishers at U.S. nationals). 2.) You, in a way, have to qualify for the qualifying round with the minimal TES score requirement.

Clearly I think the ISU is trying to find a middle ground between having 50 people compete in the SP and making all 50 people do the a QR. This seems like a reasonable compromise.

^^^ WOW. It's beginning to sink in now.

A podium skater in the previous Worlds must place within the total range of 18 in order for Japan to offer more than one skater. Since Dai placed 1st, Japan will automatically get 2 places but the 3rd skater must go to the qualifying round because Japan's previous Worlds result did not add up to 18. (Interesting theory about who goes to 4CC - yummy and power to the Fed not the skater. Let's see what they do.)

Now, since Mirai placed in top 10 at previous Worlds, she is eligible to automatically be accepted as a present Worlds contender, but the US Fed will not send her automatically. No? The power of the Fed again.


I'm not sure what is meant by minimal TES scores. I presume it means the placement at the QR is not as important as the Tech score (doesn't quite hit my old age brain)

All the skaters had to do a QR in comps before. It was somewhat unfair because they split it up into two Groups and usually one Group had more top skaters than the other. Now, High scoring would be moot since two different officials are set up to judge the skaters, and we know that is not fair.

It seems like these changes were made for the sake of change. Fixing something that isn't broken. Of couse, we will never know how all this was arranged.

Joesitz said:

^^^ WOW. It's beginning to sink in now.

A podium skater in the previous Worlds must place within the total range of 18 in order for Japan to offer more than one skater. Since Dai placed 1st, Japan will automatically get 2 places but the 3rd skater must go to the qualifying round because Japan's previous Worlds result did not add up to 18. (Interesting theory about who goes to 4CC - yummy and power to the Fed not the skater. Let's see what they do.)

Click to expand...

No, it's not that complicated. The direct entries is basically the top 18 placements by country. Again it's not tied to the skater. Here is the direct entry for the men based on last year's Worlds.

1. JPN
2. CAN
3. FRA
4 CZE
5 USA
6 USA
7 ITA
8 BEL
9 SWE
10 JPN
11 CAN
12 SPA
13 KAZ
14 RUS
15 FRA
16 UKE
17 CHN
18 USA

So the USA (Abbott 5th + Rippon Sixth = 11< 13) CAN (Chan 2 + Reynolds 11= 13=13) and JPN (Dai 1st+ Kozuka 10th = 11<13) get three entries. But only the USA only has three entries because the third skater managed to finish in the top 18 (Bradley.) Canada will have to have one skater go into the qualifying round because they only had two skaters in the top 18 because they only had two skaters in competition. Japan will have to have one skater in the QR because again Oda bombed and finished below the top 18.
Japan gets three male competitor because of the placements of Dai and Kozuka.

In addition the second skaters from Belguim, Czech Republic, Italy and Sweden will have to compete in the QR because there was no second skater in 2010 Worlds or the second skater (in the case of CZE) finished below the Top 10

Now, since Mirai placed in top 10 at previous Worlds, she is eligible to automatically be accepted as a present Worlds contender, but the US Fed will not send her automatically. No? The power of the Fed again.

Click to expand...

Again, the direct entry is given to the federation NOT the skater. So though Mirai and Rachel both finished in the top 18, they don't automatically get to go to worlds at least not by the U.S. Federation world team process.

But thanks to Mirai and Rachel, neither of the U.S. contenders, whoever they may be, will not have to go through a QR as both spots get direct entry to the SP.

It does add to your case, Joe, that other results must be considered...

I'm not sure what is meant by minimal TES scores. I presume it means the placement at the QR is not as important as the Tech score (doesn't quite hit my old age brain)

Click to expand...

Ah this is a bit confusing. Here's how it works: To even get to the qualifying round in the first place (if you don't qualify by direct entry), the skater the federation enters for the qualifying round will will have to score a minimum TES score in both the SP and FS of any ISU-qualified competition (Last year's Worlds, JGP/GP events, probably Senior B as well). For the men it's 20 in the short and and 35 in the free skate.

So whoever Japan ends up sending to the qualifying round will easily qualify for this.
But how if the Estonian fed decides to send Viktor Romanenkov to Worlds again (he was sent last year). He didn't make World's FS last year, so that won't get him into the qualifying round.

Okay he competed in JGP Germany. His short program TES is 25.25. By the skin of his teeth, he meets the requirement there. And hey it looks like he did a little better in the FS and got a TES of 51.65, well above the requirement for the FS. So because of that competition, Romanenkov can compete in the qualifying round.

All the skaters had to do a QR in comps before. It was somewhat unfair because they split it up into two Groups and usually one Group had more top skaters than the other. Now, High scoring would be moot since two different officials are set up to judge the skaters, and we know that is not fair.

It seems like these changes were made for the sake of change. Fixing something that isn't broken. Of couse, we will never know how all this was arranged.

Click to expand...

Well I think they dropped the QR because it was getting to be too much for all the competitors to do their FS twice. But then by having everyone do the SP that created a really long competition.

I think they wanted to find a way to limit the entries while giving smaller federations a chance to still compete.

We'll see how this works. I think it's kind of complicated..but we'll see.

Mrs. P said:

No, it's not that complicated. The direct entries is basically the top 18 placements by country. Again it's not tied to the skater. Here is the direct entry for the men based on last year's Worlds.

1. JPN
2. CAN
3. FRA
4 CZE
5 USA
6 USA
7 ITA
8 BEL
9 SWE
10 JPN
11 CAN
12 SPA
13 KAZ
14 RUS
15 FRA
16 UKE
17 CHN
18 USA

So the USA (Abbott 5th + Rippon Sixth = 11< 13) CAN (Chan 2 + Reynolds 11= 13=13) and JPN (Dai 1st+ Kozuka 10th = 11<13) get three entries. But only the USA only has three entries because the third skater managed to finish in the top 18 (Bradley.) Canada will have to have one skater go into the qualifying round because they only had two skaters in the top 18 because they only had two skaters in competition. Japan will have to have one skater in the QR because again Oda bombed and finished below the top 18.
Japan gets three male competitor because of the placements of Dai and Kozuka.

In addition the second skaters from Belguim, Czech Republic, Italy and Sweden will have to compete in the QR because there was no second skater in 2010 Worlds or the second skater (in the case of CZE) finished below the Top 10


Again, the direct entry is given to the federation NOT the skater. So though Mirai and Rachel both finished in the top 18, they don't automatically get to go to worlds at least not by the U.S. Federation world team process.

But thanks to Mirai and Rachel, neither of the U.S. contenders, whoever they may be, will not have to go through a QR as both spots get direct entry to the SP.

It does add to your case, Joe, that other results must be considered...



Ah this is a bit confusing. Here's how it works: To even get to the qualifying round in the first place (if you don't qualify by direct entry), the skater the federation enters for the qualifying round will will have to score a minimum TES score in both the SP and FS of any ISU-qualified competition (Last year's Worlds, JGP/GP events, probably Senior B as well). For the men it's 20 in the short and and 35 in the free skate.

So whoever Japan ends up sending to the qualifying round will easily qualify for this.
But how if the Estonian fed decides to send Viktor Romanenkov to Worlds again (he was sent last year). He didn't make World's FS last year, so that won't get him into the qualifying round.

Okay he competed in JGP Germany. His short program TES is 25.25. By the skin of his teeth, he meets the requirement there. And hey it looks like he did a little better in the FS and got a TES of 51.65, well above the requirement for the FS. So because of that competition, Romanenkov can compete in the qualifying round.


Well I think they dropped the QR because it was getting to be too much for all the competitors to do their FS twice. But then by having everyone do the SP that created a really long competition.

I think they wanted to find a way to limit the entries while giving smaller federations a chance to still compete.

We'll see how this works. I think it's kind of complicated..but we'll see.

Click to expand...

Again, thank you for the clarifications.

If I am reading correctly, the old system had the number 13 for qualifying 3 skaters, but the new will only give out 2 and a 3rd must go to the QR if and only if their previous Worlds Tes scores were l8 or 20 to prove themselves worthy. (How they arrived at 18 and 20 shall remain secret.)

If placements for a Worlds is complicated, it must be Figure Skating

Joesitz said:

Again, thank you for the clarifications.

If I am reading correctly, the old system had the number 13 for qualifying 3 skaters, but the new will only give out 2 and a 3rd must go to the QR if and only if their previous Worlds Tes scores were l8 or 20 to prove themselves worthy. (How they arrived at 18 and 20 shall remain secret.)

If placements for a Worlds is complicated, it must be Figure Skating

Click to expand...

Actually all entries for the worlds have to make the minimal TES score requirement. The top 18 (direct entries) will easily qualify for this based on GP or Last year's Worlds. The requirement I think is more applicable to those who didn't make the FS last year.

Again the number of spots a country earns and whether a federation gets all three (or some) into direct entry are two different things. Here are a few scenarios for countries that earn three spots.

1.) A lone skater from a federation gets into the top 2 and earns three spots for her country. The highest ranked skater would get the direct entry (likely the one who earned the spots) and the other two skaters would have to compete in QR. (No example of this, but Yuna had the chance to do so in 2007.)

2.) Two skaters manage to place well enough to earn three spots. To earn those three spots they both had to be on the top 18, so the federation gets two direct entries. The third skater sent by the federation with the lowest world ranking would have to skate a QR.

3.) The top two placements of a three-skater team manage to do well enough to keep three spots, but the third skater bombs and ends up outside the top 18, so the federation only gets two direct entries. The third skater sent by the federation with the lowest world ranking would skate QR. (Kozuka and Dai skated well enough for three spots but Oda did not make the FS let alone the Top 18. Right now Kozuka would have to do the QR because he has the lowest ranking, but that may change with 4CC)

4.) The top two placements of a three-skater team manage to do well enough to keep three spots, and the third skater manages to stay in the top 18, allowing the country three direct spots. (example: Japanese ladies. Mao and Miki's placements earned three spots, but Akiko did well enough for Japan to get a third direct entry).

I've put a ladies prospects thread on the Worlds forum so we can hash that out over there....We probably need to get back to finding new ways to determine Worlds team.

But goodness yes, this is confusing! I am amazed at all the extra research I've done to answer yoru questions.