Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

I noticed this thread earlier but I wasnt a member here yet. So I thought I would restart. Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim. My personal opinion is under COP no chance in hell Kwan would ever beat a clean Yu Na Kim. Under the 6.0 system Kwan from the 2000 and 2001 Worlds or 98 Nationals vs Kim from the 2010 Olympics would be very close though. I still would favor Kim though. Kwan lost to Lipinski in the only event both skated cleanly in even under 6.0, and Kim is a way better skater than Lipinski.

pangtongfan said:

I noticed this thread earlier but I wasnt a member here yet. So I thought I would restart. Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim. My personal opinion is under COP no chance in hell Kwan would ever beat a clean Yu Na Kim. Under the 6.0 system Kwan from the 2000 and 2001 Worlds or 98 Nationals vs Kim from the 2010 Olympics would be very close though. I still would favor Kim though. Kwan lost to Lipinski in the only event both skated cleanly in even under 6.0, and Kim is a way better skater than Lipinski.

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My personal opinion...you should have not restated this thread. Waste of time.

No doubt in my mind that Michelle would have beaten YuNa under the 6.0 system. In my opinion Yuna doesn't have much artistry. Her whole thing is a triple triple and Michelle did 3/3's in her prime and was far more artistic!! Under the COP I'm not so sure. Probably Kim would win because the system is based on accumulating points and favors the technical over the artistic.

pangtongfan said:

I noticed this thread earlier but I wasnt a member here yet. So I thought I would restart. Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim. My personal opinion is under COP no chance in hell Kwan would ever beat a clean Yu Na Kim. Under the 6.0 system Kwan from the 2000 and 2001 Worlds or 98 Nationals vs Kim from the 2010 Olympics would be very close though. I still would favor Kim though. Kwan lost to Lipinski in the only event both skated cleanly in even under 6.0, and Kim is a way better skater than Lipinski.

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About Lipinski, she won because she needed the best skate she could ever possibly give, and she did. Also, the skate order helped her a lot, Michelle skated rather early, and Tara skated after Surya who had just bombed, done an illegal backflip and ended her program with her back to the judges so I'm sure that helped the comparison in her artistic mark...

Maybe under 6.0 but no way under CoP.

silverlake22 said:

Maybe under 6.0 but no way under CoP.

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But this is, of course, guessing that both skaters will have been training for years under the same scoring system. In that case, it's anybody's guess.

And here's the old thread (spanning 6 pages)

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...eaten-a-perfect-Yu-Na&highlight=kwan+beat+kim

I've thought about this question before and I think it's impossible to answer. Who's to say what Michelle would have been capable of had she spent her most formative years training to meet the requirements of the new judging system? Michelle never had to train highly complex spins, spirals and step sequences until she competed at the 2005 Worlds, and by then she was far from being in her best physical shape. Even in her heyday, a 3/3 was uncommon and she frequently didn't even need one to win. OTOH, Yu-Na grew up under the CoP and knew she had to excel in the areas I've mentioned previously if she wanted to dominate.

IMO, it's difficult to compare athletes from different competitive eras by any concrete ("Skater X could execute this and that while Skater Y did not") standards.

andulsia--like your anwer and agree with it.

burntBREAD said:

About Lipinski, she won because she needed the best skate she could ever possibly give, and she did. Also, the skate order helped her a lot, Michelle skated rather early, and Tara skated after Surya who had just bombed, done an illegal backflip and ended her program with her back to the judges so I'm sure that helped the comparison in her artistic mark...

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I agree and I felt Tara was overrated anyway. The Olympic Gold (which I agree was her best performance to date) is the only big title she won that I probably agreed with. That and her default U.S title in 97. I did not agree with her World title at all, nor her 96/97 Grand Prix final title. I am not even sure if I agreed with her 97/98 Grand Prix final title over Szewcenko or not.

Andalusia said:

I've thought about this question before and I think it's impossible to answer. Who's to say what Michelle would have been capable of had she spent her most formative years training to meet the requirements of the new judging system? Michelle never had to train highly complex spins, spirals and step sequences until she competed at the 2005 Worlds, and by then she was far from being in her best physical shape. Even in her heyday, a 3/3 was uncommon and she frequently didn't even need one to win. OTOH, Yu-Na grew up under the CoP and knew she had to excel in the areas I've mentioned previously if she wanted to dominate.

IMO, it's difficult to compare athletes from different competitive eras by any concrete ("Skater X could execute this and that while Skater Y did not") standards.

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You make some good points on the spins and other elements, but on jumps I would disagree. I think what Michelle was able to do in jumps is what we saw. I wouldnt agree she wouldnt have seen the benefit of doing harder jumps. From 2000 onwards in the judges eyes the only way for Michelle to beat Irina was for Michelle to skate perfectly and Irina to make mistakes which is what happened at the 2000 and 2001 Worlds. She wouldnt have won either of those Worlds had Irina skated her best in the long program (and Maria in 2000 as well), even with her own amazing skates unless she did an even harder triple-triple. Now I am not saying that was right, in fact I think Slutskaya is one of the most overrated skaters in recent memory, but my point is that was still the reality of the judges perspective at the time, and I am sure Kwan was well aware of this. So no way if she could do harder triple-triples she wouldnt have done them to give herself a better chance vs Irina then what she had during that time. And of course she would have more likely won the 98 Olympics even with Tara's great skate had she done a triple-triple, particularly one harder than the triple toe- triple toe (which she might have done without her toe injury). With the caliber of skating that night she would have placed atleast 2nd in the LP at the 2002 Olympics and thus won the gold overall, even with her fall had she done a triple-triple, especialy one of the harder ones. Harder triple-triples would have always boosted her chances of winning further to what they were, inspite of how often she won in her career. Competing against people like Irina and Tara (great jumpers) and Chen and Cohen (other great artists) and Hughes (consistent skater you were in trouble with if you fell) she wouldnt have purposely held herself back from doing anything she was capable of doing.

I dont think Kwan would ever match Yu Na in jumps. Neither in the ability do as many tough combinations, nor in the quality and power of the jumps which gives Yu Na huge GOE that nobody today can match which is a little talked about big edge she has (and Kwan would definitely not match either).

burntBREAD said:

About Lipinski, she won because she needed the best skate she could ever possibly give, and she did. Also, the skate order helped her a lot, Michelle skated rather early, and Tara skated after Surya who had just bombed, done an illegal backflip and ended her program with her back to the judges so I'm sure that helped the comparison in her artistic mark...

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Yes, Kwan did skate early, but so did Kulik and he won the gold medal. To win Kwan would have needed her best skate, the kind of performance she gave in Nationals, in my opinion. LOL, yeah, Tara skated after Surya and Christine Brennan mentioned in her book something like "every skater looks artistic who skates after Surya...

I don't know if there's an answer, but I do know that even the existence of someone as phenomenal as Kim doesn't make Kwan any less splendid to behold. She will always be a magical skater to me, as Kurt Browning will always be also (and he had no Olympic medal of any color). I actually love threads like this, though, because it gives us all a chance to examine great skaters and hear new insights from one another.

Kwan in her prime sure as heck could have beaten all the current roster of Americans, anyway, triple-triple notwithstanding, CoP notwithstanding. She's make the U.S. look good in any era. But what she did achieve in her era, and what stands now and forever, is that bewitching amalgamation of mental toughness, meticulous technique, musicality, and artistic interpretation. Will I ever stop getting gooseflesh from her best programs? Well, I haven't stopped getting gooseflesh from Janet Lynn's, and she mostly did only double jumps. Why would Kwan's wonders pale on me?

This is not to take anything away from YuNa. She's a grand jumper, but she's not just a jumper by any means. As Kwan was Lori Nichol's muse, YuNa is David Wilson's. She expresses music beautifully and certainly equals Kwan in mental toughness.

Maybe I'm greedy, but I'm thrilled to bits we have them both! And our marvelous Mao Asada in the bargain. Who's better? Who cares! Is a diamond better than a sapphire or an emerald?

The question sort of makes as much sense as asking, say, could Katarina Witt in her prime beat a clean Kwan (in her prime).

Under 1990s/early 2000s rules, no -- jump content mattered too much, and Kwan was as good as or better than Witt at most other important freestyle skills.

Under 1980s rules, with no extra training, then yes. Kwan would have been too far behind in school figures.

I'm sure if Witt had trained for a decade in freestyle only she would have had 4 or 5 consistent triples and been a threat. I'm sure if Kwan had trained advanced school figures for competition for years she would have been good enough at them to be a threat. Ditto for Kim.

And if Witt or Kwan had trained freestyle only under IJS rules, they would have developed the necessary skills to be competitive.

But I do think Kim has more than just triple-triples. She skates with great speed and confidence, her jumps are huge, she does complicated steps, etc.

(I'm using present tense but of course we haven't seen her compete since last season.)

So under the same rules and training expectations, with different physical strengths and weaknesses, I think any of those three women could have been competitive with each other, winning sometimes and losing other times.

This again? Is this thread going to be revived every season?

miki88 said:

This again? Is this thread going to be revived every season?

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Makes me sad every time I see it.

I didn't post in the 1st thread so all I will say is...there is NO way to tell. As they both are now, Michelle would have a big edge under 6.0, Yu-Na under COP. But I truly believe the Greats adapt and had Michelle come up under COP, she would've been a very good COP skater. Just looking at 2005 Worlds...a very injured Michelle, at the tail end of her career, skating to not very COP friendly programs still managed decent marks and was 3rd in both the SP and LP. I wish we could've seen her 2006 programs. That would have been more telling. I also think Michelle wouldn't have had the longevity under COP that she did under 6.0, so for this fan, I'm glad she was a 6.0 skater.

MKFSfan said:

I also think Michelle wouldn't have had the longevity under COP that she did under 6.0,

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Why do you think this?

Because I think COP is too demanding on skaters' bodies. To maximize points, especially in spins, I would think that would be more taxing for Michelle.

All time LADIES RANKING with the BEST SKATE...Under any judging system.

1. Yuna Kim
2. Mao Asada
3. Kristi Yamaguchi
4. Tara Lipinski
5. Michelle Kwan
6. Irina Slutskaya
7. Midori Ito

Remember...7th ranked Midori of her best can beat Yuna sometimes...ICE IS SLIPPERY !

SkatingAnalyst said:

All time LADIES RANKING with the BEST SKATE...Under any judging system.

1. Yuna Kim
2. Mao Asada
3. Kristi Yamaguchi
4. Tara Lipinski
5. Michelle Kwan
6. Irina Slutskaya
7. Midori Ito

Remember...7th ranked Midori of her best can beat Yuna sometimes...ICE IS SLIPPERY !

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I find your list extremely bizarre.

Midori Ito is not exactly my favourite skater, but she most definitely should NOT be seventh-ranked on this list, especially if "any judging system" includes CoP. Midori would have absolutely KILLED under CoP, especially on TES: she had great speed (automatic SS boost!), giant jumps with great height and distance, transitions going into her giant jumps and a 3A that deserves +2 GOE.

Tara Lipinski had a flutz and many of her 3Lo combos would definitely been downgraded under CoP, thus knocking off lots of points. Plus her jumps were rather small, so she would not receive much GOE on them. Her SS is not the best either.

I also wouldn't rank Mao Asada so high if the criteria was "under any judging system"--to me, Mao is a much better 6.0 than CoP skater--without the fear of downgrades and flutz calls, Mao would probably use a much more difficult jump layout on paper with 3-3s and 3As under 6.0 (actually, it's pretty scary to imagine what monster jump layout a hypothetical 6.0-Mao would unleash). Her ballerina style would definitely guarantee her high presentation marks too (hey, if Surya Bonaly can get mid-to-high 5s....)