Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

SkatingAnalyst said:

All time LADIES RANKING with the BEST SKATE...Under any judging system.

1. Yuna Kim
2. Mao Asada
3. Kristi Yamaguchi
4. Tara Lipinski
5. Michelle Kwan
6. Irina Slutskaya
7. Midori Ito

Remember...7th ranked Midori of her best can beat Yuna sometimes...ICE IS SLIPPERY !

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How did you come up with this? Different arguments could be made as to who could be #1. Who's to say that if Sonja Henie, Cecilia Colledge, or Janet Lynn had grown up in IJS, they wouldn't be as competitive. Perhaps we can say that the ladies you've listed are all-time best jumpers, or skaters who compete/could compete as the best under the IJS. Certainly, with enough training, any of these women could've been successful under IJS or 6.0.

Midori at her best could win the Olympic gold in MEN. Where the hell did you get that list?

FlattFan said:

Midori at her best could win the Olympic gold in MEN. Where the hell did you get that list?

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I just re-watched some of Midori's old programs and realized that her 3A is better than the 3As of at least 3 of the men who placed in the top 5 in Vancouver

evangeline said:

I find your list extremely bizarre.

Midori Ito is not exactly my favourite skater, but she most definitely should NOT be seventh-ranked on this list, especially if "any judging system" includes CoP. Midori would have absolutely KILLED under CoP, especially on TES: she had great speed (automatic SS boost!), giant jumps with great height and distance, transitions going into her giant jumps and a 3A that deserves +2 GOE.

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Naah, I don't think so. Her 3A+3T, if she'd landed it in competition, would get that +2 GOE. Her 3A alone deserves a +3 GOE.

It would have been amazing to watch Midori skate under CoP and witness her against Yu-Na. I would have loved to see her go for the 3Axel-3Toe in the SP and 8 Triples (including two 3Axels) in the LP.

The sad part is Mao could have been just as good (not in terms of power in the jumps, but overall). Tarasova made her skating regress.

Blades of Passion said:

It would have been amazing to watch Midori skate under CoP and witness her against Yu-Na. I would have loved to see her go for the 3Axel-3Toe in the SP and 8 Triples (including two 3Axels) in the LP.

The sad part is Mao could have been just as good (not in terms of power in the jumps, but overall). Tarasova made her skating regress.

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It wasn't totally TAT's fault though ...

evangeline said:

I just re-watched some of Midori's old programs and realized that her 3A is better than the 3As of at least 3 of the men who placed in the top 5 in Vancouver

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ITA. I think Midori's FS at the 1990 worlds could've won the 1994, 1998, 2002, and maybe 2006 Olympic ladies competitions.

pangtongfan, As in the past thread you embarrassed Evan's fans, by posting this thread are embarrassing Yuna's fans. ;;;

aftertherain said:

It wasn't totally TAT's fault though ...

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I feel like it mostly was. TAT failed to understand her skater and gave her inappropriate choreography (choreography that wouldn't have been great for any skater, period) and she also failed to make sure Mao had the best jump layout, leaving her with less potential points than she should have been able to get. There was no reason for not having Mao attempt a Triple-Triple in the SP (the 3A could have been the solo Triple) and a Triple-Triple or 2Axel-3Toe in the LP. Mao's 3Flip-3Toe was getting really good during the 2008 season, so they should have trained that if there was fear of the 3Flip-3Loop being downgraded.

Blades of Passion said:

I feel like it mostly was. TAT failed to understand her skater and gave her inappropriate choreography (choreography that wouldn't have been great for any skater, period) and she also failed to make sure Mao had the best jump layout, leaving her with less potential points than she should have been able to get. There was no reason for not having Mao attempt a Triple-Triple in the SP (the 3A could have been the solo Triple) and a Triple-Triple or 2Axel-3Toe in the LP. Mao's 3Flip-3Toe was getting really good during the 2008 season, so they should have trained that if there was fear of the 3Flip-3Loop being downgraded.

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Their arrangement was just not good because Mao was not properly trained and overlooked by a coach for a while. I wouldn't put the full blame on TAT since they both agreed on this arrangement but for choreography, she could have done so much better with Mao's programs.

blue dog said:

ITA. I think Midori's FS at the 1990 worlds could've won the 1994, 1998, 2002, and maybe 2006 Olympic ladies competitions.

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See, this is the benefit of a thread like this being revived periodically. Someone always chimes in with information about one or more other skaters, and then the game's afoot. Midori is not my favorite skater, but my admiration for her is boundless nonetheless. I think she probably would defeat some of the less proficient men. Also, despite her sheer power, she is very musical and has expression. Seventh? Not on your life.

Also, as someone pointed out, Tara's jumps were small. Someone once said that she jumped like a roller skater, which is what she started out as competitively. (My late friend Kath, figure skater fan extraordinaire, once remarked that you couldn't slide a piece of paper under one of Tara's jumps.) So I wouldn't put Midori, one of history's great jumpers, below Tara. The fact that Tara won the Olympics and Midori didn't isn't relevant if you're evaluating across eras on the basis of individual skills and quality. Tara's artistry doesn't exceed Midori's enough to push her ahead of Midori.

Kristi is another matter. She's a strong all-round skater with good jumps and equally good expressiveness. Also, she maintained her skills through a long profesisonal career, not that this is relevant to such a ranking. She has the OGM and won it with a triple-triple. She also competed (and very successfully) as a pairs skater. For her versatility alone, I'd rank her high on the list.

As for whether I'd put Kristi above Michelle--sigh. I'm not the person to ask. Michelle's skating has such an effect on me. As K.T. Tunstall sings in "Suddenly I See," she holds you captivated on her palm. I can't argue her placement on this list one way or the other, any more than I can compare an entire list of Oscar-winning actresses to Greta Garbo, who never won an Oscar. You can argue the excellence of all of them, their power and technique and versatility, but when you are finished, there is still only one Garbo.

miki88 said:

she could have done so much better with Mao's programs.

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After I first watched Mao's Chopin Ballade No. 1 exhibition, I immediately re-watched Bells of Moscow right after, then wondered how on earth was it possible that both programs had the same choreographer.

miki88 said:

Their arrangement was just not good because Mao was not properly trained and overlooked by a coach for a while. I wouldn't put the full blame on TAT since they both agreed on this arrangement but for choreography, she could have done so much better with Mao's programs.

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I agree. TAT screwed Mao's competition programs over, but she did wonderfully with the exhibition programs! *scratches head in confusion*

evangeline said:

After I first watched Mao's Chopin Ballade No. 1 exhibition, I immediately re-watched Bells of Moscow right after, then wondered how on earth was it possible that both programs had the same choreographer.

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Bells of Moscow scares me. The music alone gives me nightmares!

Different skaters. Different times and judging...go figure.

pangtongfan said:

I wouldnt agree she wouldnt have seen the benefit of doing harder jumps.

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Yes, of course she would have. I'm just saying that Michelle didn't train harder triple-triples at an early enough stage for her to have been able to include them in her programmes with the regularity that Yu-Na did with her 3F-3T and 3L-3T combinations. Ditto the spins, spirals and step sequences. Yu-Na trained the harder jump combos and other elements from a very young age ("she grew up under the CoP") whereas Michelle didn't do so because she didn't have to. Who's to say what Michelle would have been able to execute had she been forced to undergo a training regimen similar to Yu-Na's?

The two things I think were that they should have given Michelle more upbeat music and she should have stayed with her former coach.

Also, consider that we're seeing Carolina Kostner (yes, I know she's injured) do programs with technical content that pay homage to 1987 Worlds and getting points because of her speed and artistry.

That has to show you that COP isn't all about 3-3s and hard jumps, right?

Mrs. P said:

Also, consider that we're seeing Carolina Kostner (yes, I know she's injured) do programs with technical content that pay homage to 1987 Worlds and getting points because of her speed and artistry.

That has to show you that COP isn't all about 3-3s and hard jumps, right?

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I think a lot of people, when the CoP first came out, were thinking and hoping this was what was going to happen. The first tournament where they used CoP (2004 Nebelhorn?), Jennifer Don, with very limited jump content skated a clean program, where Amber Corwin, who had a lutz and a flip, received a downgrade on her flip, and lost to Jennifer Don. People were thinking that cleaner, more aesthetic programs that may not be packed with 3-3's will start winning. Well, that all changed when programs were Biellmannized for points, and people were gyrating in their step sequences, and skaters began trying jumps they knew they were gonna miss just so they can get points.

Of course, Laura Lepisto and Carolina Kostner are changing that.

blue dog said:

I think a lot of people, when the CoP first came out, were thinking and hoping this was what was going to happen. The first tournament where they used CoP (2004 Nebelhorn?), Jennifer Don, with very limited jump content skated a clean program, where Amber Corwin, who had a lutz and a flip, received a downgrade on her flip, and lost to Jennifer Don. People were thinking that cleaner, more aesthetic programs that may not be packed with 3-3's will start winning. Well, that all changed when programs were Biellmannized for points, and people were gyrating in their step sequences, and skaters began trying jumps they knew they were gonna miss just so they can get points.

Of course, Laura Lepisto and Carolina Kostner are changing that.

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I think to an extent Kiira Korpi and Alissa Czisny are doing so also and in an even better way. Alissa has the highest season's best score and the GPF title without either a 3-3 or even a 2A-3T. Kiira won TEB against a relatively clean 6-jump (but UR) Mirai Nagasu.

Likewise I think actually what we would have seen if Michelle stuck it out is what we saw post-1998. She lost her World title, but over time gained it back. I think she would've figured out the COP.