Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

gkelly · Jan 3, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
If Kwan had trained under CoP from the start, she probably could have done a 3Flip-3Toe.

I don't think CoP has anything to do with doing harder triple-triple combinations.

If she had believed that that combination was necessary to win against her competition, under any judging system, and had therefore trained it, she probably could have done it.

To summarize my thoughts on the thread topic,
If Kwan and Kim were approximately the same age and had trained under the same expectations and skated at their peaks at the same time, I believe they would have been competitive with each other and would each win against each other sometimes.

Then throw all the skaters either of them ever lost to more than once into the mix, and you'd have a very competitive field.

pangtongfan · Jan 3, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
If Kwan had trained under CoP from the start, she probably could have done a 3Flip-3Toe. Her LP layout would be something like:

3Loop
3Flip-3Toe
3Lutz-2Toe-2Loop
-------
3Flip
2Axel-2Axel
3Sal
3Lutz

Yu-Na has only done a clean program with a 3Loop once as a Senior. She would get higher GOE for her 3-3 combination, her 2Axel-3Toe in comparison to Michelle's second 3Flip, and perhaps the second solo jump, but that's about it. Michelle would score higher for the Spiral Sequence, Step Sequence, and PCS.

Kim gets monstrous PCS from the judges, by far the highest of anyone since COP was introduced. It is purely a guess Michelle could get higher PCS.

And a spiral sequence is just one element in both programs and not worth many points.

aftertherain · Jan 3, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Kim gets monstrous PCS from the judges, by far the highest of anyone since COP was introduced. It is purely a guess Michelle could get higher PCS.

And a spiral sequence is just one element in both programs and not worth many points.

This whole thread topic is "purely" a guess.

And who's to say Michelle wouldn't have trained differently given the circumstances? Unlike Yuna atm, she had a full set of jumps (except the triple axel, of course).

I think they'd be on par with one another. I think Yuna would get higher GOE, but Michelle would get higher PCS.

silverlake22 · Jan 3, 2011

Lol it's funny how Michelle Kwan comes up in EVERY thread on here.... :rolleye:

aftertherain · Jan 3, 2011

silverlake22 said:
Lol it's funny how Michelle Kwan comes up in EVERY thread on here....

Can't help it. She's explosive.

Ahahah.

And I think you mean Yuna Kim. =X

blue dog · Jan 3, 2011

silverlake22 said:
Lol it's funny how Michelle Kwan comes up in EVERY thread on here....

50 years from now, we will have a thread on: Can a clean Michelle Kwan beat a clean (INSERT SKATER'S NAME HERE).

ks777 · Jan 3, 2011

This is so dumb. How many time did Yuna actually skate clean? Once? How about Michelle? many many times! so it's like asking if Michelle could beat a clean Sasha who only skated clean once? If they were skating under the old system, Yuna would have to attempt on the 3Loop.. most likely she wouldn't be able to skate clean plus she often make other mistakes.

pangtongfan · Jan 3, 2011

You see fewer clean performances under COP from everyone. Under 6.0s lots of skaters were doing clean performances often but not under COP. I doubt that is coincidence.

ks777 · Jan 3, 2011

pangtongfan said:
You see fewer clean performances under COP from everyone. Under 6.0s lots of skaters were doing clean performances often but not under COP. I doubt that is coincidence.

Did you do research on that? or you are implying that Yuna would be skating cleaner under the old system?

prettykeys · Jan 3, 2011

PROKOFIEV said:
Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim?

No Way!!

Spoken like a 100% YuNa fan.

Anyway, in order to answer this question, you have to pick a time (era/judging system), and place (what kind of competition? Olympics or uh, U.S. Nationals?

) And so on.

However, I find it extremely annoying and specious that certain people keep saying "Oh but uHH if Kwan had to skate under today's system and knew she had to train 3-3's she so coulda done it but YuNa can't do the 3Loop."

Why isn't the same reasoning applied to YuNa? If she had to do the 3Loop in order to gain some significant technical scoring advantage over her rivals, why couldn't she train it and do it more often and consistently? HMM? YuNa, when considering the IJS and her competition, has very little incentive to do the 3Loop. Less incentive, in fact, than Michelle had to do more difficult 3-3's, given that one of her most coveted medals was lost to triple-triplers. YuNa doesn't even have to be clean (which is a valid criticism of IJS), but she just happened to feel like it in Vancouver.

:rolleye:

and I defer the rest of the debate to gkelly's Post #61.

Blades of Passion · Jan 3, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Kim gets monstrous PCS from the judges, by far the highest of anyone since COP was introduced. It is purely a guess Michelle could get higher PCS.

Kim gets that high of PCS because she is frequently considered the only person in the field to be truly artistic and complete. This makes people think "Oh my God, she MUST win or else it will be a black mark on the sport" and the judges respond with high marks. If Michelle in her prime was competing against Kim, it would be a different story.

If Mao Asada's presentation had not been ruined by Tarasova, she too would have buffered Yu-Na's marks because Yu-Na would no longer be considered the only person who "needs" to win.

pangtongfan · Jan 3, 2011

Kwan's presence couldnt even stop Slutskaya or Lipinski from regularly getting 5.9s for presentation. I doubt it would have done anything to impact Kim's scores.

Mathman · Jan 3, 2011

prettykeys said:
Spoken like a 100% YuNa fan.

Reading the entirety of Prokoviev's post, I think she/he meant "Way!" (like a true Michelle fan).

ks777 · Jan 3, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Kwan's presence couldnt even stop Slutskaya or Lipinski from regularly getting 5.9s for presentation. I doubt it would have done anything to impact Kim's scores.

Slutskaya and Lipinski skated really fast and I don't think their presentation skills were lacking. Very competitive with Yuna. To me Yuna isn't as artistic as Kwan.

demarinis5 · Jan 3, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Kwan's presence couldnt even stop Slutskaya or Lipinski from regularly getting 5.9s for presentation. I doubt it would have done anything to impact Kim's scores.

How can you doubt a hypothetical situation? Irina and Tara competeted against Michelle that is fact. Michelle and YuNa is not. Hypothetically speaking I think that Michelle would have
beat YuNa in all phases of skating because I think Michelle is the better skater, hypothetically speaking of course.

pangtongfan · Jan 3, 2011

demarinis5 said:
Irina and Tara competeted against Michelle that is fact.

Indeed and look how well both did (in Irina's case once she became a gold contender). Yet Yu Na is a much better skater than both and certainly better on the 2nd mark (artistry, presentation, PCS, whatever) than either Tara or Irina. Yet both were still considered strong enough on the 2nd mark by the judges to post huge 2nd mark scores even competing against Michelle so I doubt Yu Na would have had any problem doing so.

ks777 · Jan 3, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Indeed and look how well both did (in Irina's case once she became a gold contender). Yet Yu Na is a much better skater than both and certainly better on the 2nd mark (artistry, presentation, PCS, whatever) than either Tara or Irina. Yet both were still considered strong enough on the 2nd mark by the judges to post huge 2nd mark scores even competing against Michelle so I doubt Yu Na would have had any problem doing so.

Is Yuna really much better skater than Tara and Irina? IMO, NO.

silverlake22 · Jan 3, 2011

blue dog said:
50 years from now, we will have a thread on: Can a clean Michelle Kwan beat a clean (INSERT SKATER'S NAME HERE).

Or maybe a new skater will come along and replace Michelle. Maybe Christina Gao?

pangtongfan · Jan 3, 2011

ks777 said:
Is Yuna really much better skater than Tara and Irina? IMO, NO.

I suppose it is a matter of opinion. I never liked the skating of Tara or Irina much at all and found them both overscored and overrated anyway. And Kim wouldnt have to be much better than them, or in fact any better to do well vs Michelle:

Tara vs Michelle in 97-98: Tara 4-1
Irina vs Michelle 2000-2005: Slutskaya 12-6 (including now the cheesefest results I found, without the ratio is even worse for Michelle btw)

pangtongfan · Jan 3, 2011

silverlake22 said:
Or maybe a new skater will come along and replace Michelle. Maybe Christina Gao?

Actually I think that has already happened. I think the next generation great skater the question people will ask in a thread like this is Skater X vs Yu Na Kim.

And that skater is most likely to be a Russian. If it is Christina Gao who cant even place at the World junior level two years in a row I would be shocked, but I guess crazier things have happened.

Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

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