Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

cosmos

On the Ice
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Oct 2, 2007
Kim gets that high of PCS because she is frequently considered the only person in the field to be truly artistic and complete. This makes people think "Oh my God, she MUST win or else it will be a black mark on the sport" and the judges respond with high marks. If Michelle in her prime was competing against Kim, it would be a different story.

If Mao Asada's presentation had not been ruined by Tarasova, she too would have buffered Yu-Na's marks because Yu-Na would no longer be considered the only person who "needs" to win.
As I recall, many thought that TAT improved Mao's presentation but ruined her technical sides. And, pcs is not simply about presentation. YuNa has better speed and skating skill than Mao.

Slutskaya and Lipinski skated really fast and I don't think their presentation skills were lacking. Very competitive with Yuna. To me Yuna isn't as artistic as Kwan.
It depends on taste. For me, YuNa is most artistic. There is no reason to think YuNa would get lower pcs than Kwan. YuNa is faster than Kwan and has excellent skating skill. YuNa is one of the rare female skaters who jumps with the note of the music.

Under 6.0 the two would have been competitive with each other, but under CoP YuNa beats MK.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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As I recall, many thought that TAT improved Mao's presentation but ruined her technical sides.

TAT improved Mao's ability to present herself like a coked out vampire who hasn't drank enough blood recently.

But in terms of her overall artistry, no, it was only backwards for Mao with TAT. Her technical skills took a dive as well.

Poor Mao. Poor skating World! We deserved a more exciting battle for that Olympic Gold.

(and yet she still snatched Olympic Silver and World Gold...shows how immensely talented this skater is)
 

aftertherain

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Jan 15, 2010
TAT improved Mao's ability to present herself like a coked out vampire who hasn't drank enough blood recently.

But in terms of her overall artistry, no, it was only backwards for Mao with TAT.

Irrelevant, but I went to the bookstore the other day ... and it seems that vampire books are now a trend. They had a whole large shelf dedicated to current/newly released vampire fiction. Oh, the terrible writing!

Anyway, in terms of exhibitions, I loved what TAT did for Mao. Caprice and the current Chopin number are amazing. It's just sad that TAT couldn't choreograph better competition programs for Mao.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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I don't get the vampire trend at all. Twilight is awful. True Blood is awful. They basically just exploit sexual fantasies of their respective audiences.

"Daybreakers" is the best vampire-related thing I've seen the past many years (so of course it made the least amount of money).
 

evangeline

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Nov 7, 2007
As I recall, many thought that TAT improved Mao's presentation but ruined her technical sides. And, pcs is not simply about presentation. YuNa has better speed and skating skill than Mao.

These "many" people must not have ever watched Bells of Moscow, then. Even Tarasova's SP choreo for Mao this season--the tango SP--is pretty blah and could be much improved. Moreover, under Tarasova, Mao's speed, skating skills and ice coverage went into a rather noticeable decline, a change that was reflected in PCS. Luckily Mao is working under Nobuo Sato now, who is known for teaching these things very well (as students such as Yuka Sato would attest) and she already shows some improvement in these areas.

I would say that Yu-Na's skating skills were arguably markedly better than Mao's for the past season or so, but this is not necessarily the case when the two are both at their best. Although IMO, Yu-Na has always skated faster than Mao, speed is not everything when it comes to skating skills--it is in areas like flow and effortless glide where Mao really stands out.
 

seniorita

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Jun 3, 2008
Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim?

I always find these questions strange. Could Browning in his prime beat Yagudin?



I saw Bells three times live last year, as the season progressed it looked way better, I think at Wolrds I even liked it. :eek::
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim?

I always find these questions strange. Could Browning in his prime beat Yagudin?



I saw Bells three times live last year, as the season progressed it looked way better, I think at Wolrds I even liked it. :eek::

Yea, I don't like the program but I liked Mao's Worlds performance of it.
 

pangtongfan

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I liked Mao's long program more than many others did last year. And even if you didnt like it, it seemed to have alot of transitions and choreography which is what the PCS rules call for, and she interpreted the music she had very well even if you didnt at all like the music, theme, or style.
 

Layfan

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Nov 5, 2009
Just in my humble option, I think there's no question that Yuna is a better skater than Tara ever was. Her jumps are way huger, she is much faster and her musicality and her range are far superior.
But I like Tara much better than other fans do so I'll say this: Yuna and Tara both have the distinction of coming into the Olympics as World Champions and skating two perfect programs under tremendous pressure and skating against formidable rivals who had won worlds the previous year. :clap:

1998 and 2010 definitely rank as the best ladies Olympic competition I've ever seen.
 

Kwanford Wife

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Dec 29, 2004
"In her prime" is such a loaded question because it all comes down to favorites and has nothing really to do with the actual skaters at actual competitions - just fantasies of Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda.

So - do I think Kwan could've beaten Yuna? Absolutely. In her prime - which for me is Red Violin season. The same goes for DivaKwara in 2004. And there is no question or debate in regards to Irina. In her prime - 2005 season - Irina would've beaten anybody. During their best seasons of combining technical with artistry, absolutely any of the three could've beaten Yuna... with a special nod to Irina's technical ability and 3 x 3 x 2/3 combo.

But something tells me that rational conversation isn't the main point of this thread so I will concede the floor to the ubers and the crazies...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I will concede the floor to the ubers and the crazies...

Why, thank you!

OK, let's get some logic going here. Since Michelle and Yu-na never competed against each other, all we can do is examine their records against mutual opponents.

Kim beat Asada at the 2010 Olympics. Asada beat Slutskaya at the 2005 Grand Prix Final. Slutskaya beat Kwan at 2002 Worlds.

But wait! Kwan beat Slutskaya at 2001 Worlds, Slutskaya beat Asada at 2005 Eric Bompard, and Asada beat Kim at 2010 worlds. :cool:
 

pangtongfan

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A 15 year old underaged Mao went a combined 5-1 vs Slutskaya, Cohen, and Arakawa in the 05-06 season. She probably would have won the 2006 Olympics had she not been kept out by a stupid age rule. That is unless she was beaten by Yu Na Kim who easily beat her at the World Juniors that same year after Mao had completed her season thrashings of the Kwan era top skaters as an underaged senior. Poor Yu Na was kept out of a chance of another Olympic and World gold by the same sillly age rule. That gives some insight into how Yu Na Kim's generation stacks up against the Kwan era top skaters.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Slightly off topic, but do you agree that 2005-06 was Asada's best, and that she has not really progressed much since?

Except for the anomaly of Arakawa. it is rare for a "lady" past her teens to win the Olympics.
 

antmanb

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Feb 5, 2004
No, Sonia Henie would have beaten them both!!

Irina vs Michelle 2000-2005: Slutskaya 12-6 (including now the cheesefest results I found, without the ratio is even worse for Michelle btw)

Why wouldn't you look at their entire competitive career against each other given they are very similar ages? Why only wait until Slutskaya started winning to count the victories?

Ant
 

pangtongfan

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^ Slightly off topic, but do you agree that 2005-06 was Asada's best, and that she has not really progressed much since?

Except for the anomaly of Arakawa. it is rare for a "lady" past her teens to win the Olympics.

Asada's best was probably in 2007 and 2008. I dont think she was better in 2010 than 2007 and 2008 but she was definitely better than 05-06. In 05-06 she was still immature in style, even if she already was quite delicate and nice on the ice.
 

pangtongfan

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Why wouldn't you look at their entire competitive career against each other given they are very similar ages? Why only wait until Slutskaya started winning to count the victories?

Since if you are looking at the period Slutskaya is considered a great skater who could even be remotedly compared to Yu Na Kim that would only be 2000-2005. Nobody would even dare to compare the Slutskaya of 96-99 who was a second tier skater never contending for a major title and struggling to make Russian World teams to Yu Na Kim, nor would she be considered a great skater or tough opponent of any sort for Kwan during this period either. Slutskaya of 96-99 = Butyrskaya or Suguri basically.
 
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miki88

Medalist
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Dec 28, 2009
A 15 year old underaged Mao went a combined 5-1 vs Slutskaya, Cohen, and Arakawa in the 05-06 season. She probably would have won the 2006 Olympics had she not been kept out by a stupid age rule. That is unless she was beaten by Yu Na Kim who easily beat her at the World Juniors that same year after Mao had completed her season thrashings of the Kwan era top skaters as an underaged senior. Poor Yu Na was kept out of a chance of another Olympic and World gold by the same sillly age rule. That gives some insight into how Yu Na Kim's generation stacks up against the Kwan era top skaters.

Are you really going to ignore the fact that it was one of Mao's worst performances? She was probably burned out after her breakout season and also disappointed of not being elgibile despite winning the GPF that year. It's not that different from Yuna's condition at Worlds last year.
 

pangtongfan

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Are you really going to ignore the fact that it was one of Mao's worst performances? She was probably burned out after her breakout season and also disappointment of not being elgibile despite winning the GPF that year. It's not that different from Yuna's condition at Worlds last year.

Fair point, but the point is that it is very clear either Mao or Yu Na could have won the Olympics and Worlds that year. In fact Mao would have been the favorite for the Olympic Gold had she been eligible to compete. The Olympic Champion Shizuka was 0-3 vs Mao that year.
 

gkelly

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Jul 26, 2003
Nobody would even dare to compare the Slutskaya of 96-99 who was a second tier skater never contending for a major title and struggling to make Russian World teams to Yu Na Kim, nor would she be considered a great skater or tough opponent of any sort for Kwan during this period either.

If Slutskaya of 1996-99 -- two-time European champion, two-time world medalist during that period -- was a second tier skater, then the first tier during those years must have been mighty small. I'm sure you would include Kwan. How about Lipinski, Butyrskaya, or Chen? After those four, there is no one who had a better record than Slutskaya during those years.
 

miki88

Medalist
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Dec 28, 2009
^ Slightly off topic, but do you agree that 2005-06 was Asada's best, and that she has not really progressed much since?

Except for the anomaly of Arakawa. it is rare for a "lady" past her teens to win the Olympics.

Mao's skating matured a lot since then. Sure her programs/style haven't been well-received in recent years but there's refinement in her skating than back in 2005. However, what she did have back then was a fearless attitude. She just went out there as if she had no pressure. This is the perhaps the greatest asset that young skaters have in competing. It's what gave Lipinski the edge ahead of Michelle. She really skated as if she had nothing to lose. So although I wouldn't say 2005 Mao was her best in terms of skating, but she was at her best as a competitor.
 
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