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- Nov 19, 2010
Mathman said:
Does Zayak rule apply to phantom quad Axels in those phantom sequences?
Highest PCS of The Season
- Thread starter Violet Bliss
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Does Zayak rule apply to phantom quad Axels in those phantom sequences?
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- Jun 21, 2003
Good point. I guess I was thinking 6.0, where the second mark meant how pretty you were.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Is grace mentioned in the scoring of CoP? Why should it be if some Ladies can not skate to The Ritual Fire Dance?Point taken,
Still, it's kind of depressing to think that according to the IJS ladies are not as capable as men in presenting good choreography, that ladies are not as musical as men, that ladies are not as good performers (lacking in good carriage, less appealing to audiences, etc.), that their basic stoking and edge work is worse than men's, and that they cannot weave three-turns and Mohawks into their routines as deftly as men.
The PCs, from what I understand, are how the skater performs his/her program, and the program on itself has to be well choreographed. The Ladies do not choreograph their programs. A professional choreographer does that, to the easy way the skater can execute her technical. There are creative artists (Lori Nichol) and performing artists (Kwan).
I would agree with your summation of the comparison between the Ladies and the Men. The Men are all round better at performance. They are born show offs. Some Ladies - a few - are doing well in performance, while much more males are entertaining even if they do not podium. The List is long on the male side.
Yes.
My understanding is that if there are 4 or more jumps in a combination, the whole thing will count for zilch, because a 4-jump combination is not a valid element under the current rules. I can't find any written confirmation that that's the case, but given the tech panel guidelines on how to handle a second three-jump combo, I believe it would be interpreted that way.
I like your solution better.
Actually, it's the two highest-value jumps.
You can deliberately choose to land the first jump on the back inside edge of the other foot. If you do it intentionally and do it well, it's not faulty, it's an alternative landing choice. One-foot axel into triple salchow would be the most likely example.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf
If it happens by mistake, expect the GOE to be negative and no salchow afterward. If it's done on purpose, which would be necessary for putting a triple or even double afterward, then the GOE could be negative, 0, or positive depending on how well it's done.
Rare, but legal.
Correct, there is no penalty in base value for a wrong foot or wrong edge landing if the rotation is complete.
Regarding a "wrong-foot" landing, see the quote above. If it's a mistake, there will be negative GOE, and quite likely more severe than -1. If it's an intentional one-foot axel, half loop, etc., and if it's done well, there's no GOE reduction.
A jump that lands on the normal landing foot but with the blade coming down first on the inside edge and then rocking onto the outside edge, -1 would indeed be the most likely penalty for that error, plus or minus any other positive or negative qualities of the element.
No no no. A walley is a nonlisted jump and counts as a transition.
A toe walley counts as a toe loop.
Walley and Toe Walley are completely different jumps, just as Loop and Toe Loop are completely different jumps.
Does Zayak rule apply to phantom quad Axels in those phantom sequences?
The "phantom" jump sequences give (80%) credit only for the jump that's actually executed. There's no base value for the nonexistent jump -- whether you imagine it's a quad axel or a single toe loop, it still adds 0 points to the value of the element. Or 80% of 0 points, if you like.
Not in so many words.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf
"Flow" under Skating Skills and "Carriage" and maybe "Clarity" under Performance/Execution would contribute to the sense of grace.
For the most part that's true. A few rare competitors may do some or most of their own choreography.
I found that to be true under 6.0 as well. I have two theories why that might be the case.
1) Tradition (in skating culture and in western culture, or human culture, in general) tells us that women are artistic if they are beautiful. So many female skaters who aim to be seen as artistic work at creating beauty with their body line and movement quality but not necessarily at "showing off" or engaging the audience the way many men do. Men, on the other hand, may consider being judged on physical beauty too feminizing, so they choose more active ways of demonstrating artistry.
2) Most of the top male skaters are adults in their 20s, whereas many top female skaters are still in their teens. Adults have more experience and more autonomy to express their own vision than teenagers. That skews the average level of self-expression in the top ranks in favor of the males. And then those top skaters serve as role models for what's expected by others in their discipline.
But there are always exceptions.
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- Nov 19, 2010
The "phantom" jump sequences give (80%) credit only for the jump that's actually executed. There's no base value for the nonexistent jump -- whether you imagine it's a quad axel or a single toe loop, it still adds 0 points to the value of the element. Or 80% of 0 points, if you like.
But, but, but........Mathman has allowed quad Axels to be attached to and counted (80%) in all cases of phantome sequences!
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- Jun 21, 2003
Ah. I guess it would have to be that way in the case of the half-loop sequence.
Patrick Chan has a 3Lz+half-loop+3S. So if he singled the last jump he would get 6.0+1.5 (for Lutz plus the half-loop) instead of 6.0+1.4 (for the Lutz+Salchpw). :yes:
Would it be easier or harder to land a double or triple loop jump on the opposite foot?
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Harder!!! (if you're trying to do it cleanly)
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- Jun 21, 2003
I think we can go even farther. Traditionally, men ruled the roost and a woman's best hope was to look pretty. It has always been in the masculine tradition to strut boastfully about.
The coolest application of this principle to figure skating (I read this in the book Culture on Ice by Ellyn Kestnbaum, and it has stuck with me as an interesting thought, whether true or not) is this: School figures are masculine, because they represent man imposing his will on nature by carving his initials into the virgin ice.
Free skating is feminine because it is about a woman displaying her body for the approval of rich and powerful men (the judges and the audience).
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That would have been true last year and before, when something-half loop-something was considered a jump sequence, with 80% base value of the two highest value jumps.
Now the rules changed to consider it a three-jump combination, with full base value for all three jumps.
What Blades of Passion said.
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- Nov 19, 2010
Choreography is a collaboration between a skater and a choreographer, who may be the skater himself/herself. Not everybody can execute and perform a winning choreography if it were just given to him/her. A good choreographer works with the skater's skills and personality so that his/her technical ability as well as artistry may be showcased. A skater has to live with a program for a year so a good fit is extremely important.
Scoring points in the COP system is not hard to understand and incorporated optimally into the program. The points are there for any skater to get if they can - do the quads, the level 4 spins and footworks, as well as difficult jumps and combos in the later half of the program....... if you can.
If a skater can win just by buying a Nichols or Wilson choreography, all of them will cough up the money somehow to do so. But alas, you need to be able to do the hard stuff, beautifully and effortlessly.
Scoring points in the COP system is not hard to understand and incorporated optimally into the program. The points are there for any skater to get if they can - do the quads, the level 4 spins and footworks, as well as difficult jumps and combos in the later half of the program....... if you can.
If a skater can win just by buying a Nichols or Wilson choreography, all of them will cough up the money somehow to do so. But alas, you need to be able to do the hard stuff, beautifully and effortlessly.
School figures are not initials, they're just circles, maybe with turns on them. I guess a figure 8 would amount to the same thing for someone whose initials are OO.
See pp. 13-21 of this document for diagrams of the official school figures.
But carving circles in the ice or carving initials or other designs in the ice would all be examples of leaving a mark on nature.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Well, the CoP evaluates and scores things like “quality of movement,” “ease of movement.” “effortless flow,” “use of line and movement as inspired by the music,” “movement marked by an impulse of energy that grows, builds, finds a conclusion, then flows easily and naturally into the next movement phrase,” expressing the music though “refined, artful manipulation of nuances.”
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- Mar 27, 2010
Thanks for this! :thumbsup:
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- Jul 11, 2003
The way life started out was that Men are hunters; Women are child bearing. That was the start of yin and yang. How much of that has changed over the millenium? We do acknowldege exceptions in gender bending. (Is Kozuka an example of Men's grace? I would think so and others too. Is Irina an example of Women's will to win? I would think so.)
The top female skaters tend to be ladylike; the male skaters tend to be sporty. The best skaters tend to use both yin and yang in their styles. Who are they, could very easily be subjective.
Personally, I do not have to see ballet-like styles of female skaters; but that's all I see. I do not have to see rugged male skaters showing off their quads, and I do see a more variety of styles.
Much of competitive skating is based on motivation with a flair for uniqueness.
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- Jul 11, 2003
It's extremeley limited for top skaters and doesn't exist for juveniles.
A choreographer working with a top "star" pretty much knows the limitations of that star. He/she lays out a plan of action so that the music, flow and transitions move the work along so that it becomes a vehicle worth watching.
The choreographer does not tell her to do a salchow here and a lutz there. He tells her with this beat of the music she could use a big jump here and a combo there. The input of the skater is to make decisions about which elements she can easily execute. The skater is never involved in the layout of the program, but must bring forth his/her style to it.
If the program is not comfortable for the skater a change in choreographer may be necessary. Music, too could not be felt by the skater.
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- Sep 10, 2009
