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Thread: IJS question: what is a ChSp or ChSt?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    IJS question: what is a ChSp or ChSt?

    Does something like a Charlotte by itself count as a ChSp? What about an Ina Bauer? Is more than one position required or expected? Can a skater do her scored spiral and then her ChSp and still throw in an incidental spiral just as an unscored part of the program?

    Are there any requirements or guidelines as to what a ChSt should include? Are they judged just by how well they support the choreography, or are the judges supposed to take into account the complexity and variety of the steps and turns?

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    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    I actually haven't been following this season very closely, but I know that they changed SpSq --> ChSq. My question is ... what exactly is ChSq?

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    You can either do one position and hold it for 6 seconds, or two positions for 3 seconds. The spirals have to be on an edge.
    Technically, you could do a charlotte, but on an edge it is very difficult. Other spirals are supposed to be taken into account in the transitions section of the PCS scores.

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    :) aftertherain's Avatar
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    ^ So spiral sequences are something they no longer are given credit for? They're only required to do a "choreographed" spiral?

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    It is a set base value of 2 points with GOE given so +1 gives you 3 points, +2 gives you 4 and so on. There are no levels, if that is what you mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Does something like a Charlotte by itself count as a ChSp?
    If it's performed on an edge and held for 6 seconds.

    What about an Ina Bauer?
    No, it's not a spiral. It counts as a transition.

    Is more than one position required or expected?
    See SkateSkates's post #3.

    Can a skater do her scored spiral and then her ChSp and still throw in an incidental spiral just as an unscored part of the program?
    The scored spiral (or spirals) is the ChSp. The first one she does that meets the definition of the element or looks like it's trying to will get called as ChSp.

    Anything after that will not get called and will be treated as transitions.

    Are there any requirements or guidelines as to what a ChSt should include? Are they judged just by how well they support the choreography, or are the judges supposed to take into account the complexity and variety of the steps and turns?
    See under "Free Skating" and "How to Call the Choreographic Step Sequence" in the technical panel handbook. As long as there's a pattern of steps that fills the ice surface (end to end, or side to side with a complete circle), it fulfills the definition and earns the base mark.

    There's no documentation I'm aware of requiring or even suggesting that judges take the difficulty into account. Some might do so on their own initiative.

    "Creativity and originality" and "Element matched to the musical structure" were already bullet points for positive GOE and still are. So if the sequence does those things well, I would expect positive GOE and also better scores for the Choreography component than if it didn't.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    They had the right idea with their reworking of how Spirals are scored, but the rules still need to be loosened up more. I would prefer if the element was defined as:

    * 1 or more Spiral positions performed for a total of at least 5 seconds in series (moves in the field between positions are fine), with at least 1 position being held for at least 3 seconds.

    * Charlottes should count when performed on the flat of the blade. (I mean COME ON, a fully extended charlotte is DIFFICULT just on the flat)

    EDIT - And to clarify when I say "position", I just mean the same skating leg basically. As long as the free leg is hip level or higher for that minimum amount of time on one leg and the total amount of time in spiral position throughout the sequence is at least 5 seconds.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 01-06-2011 at 04:03 AM.

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    Thank gawd, I do not have to sit through 5 spirals in consecutive order any more.

    If we are talking about juveniles - YES - get them any which way to show they can lift a leg up in the air - edge or flat - and judge them accordingly..

    For the "elite" skaters, those who are consistently in the top 18 (certainly in the top 10), how much of a problem is this? Most of the comments I read are about never finding fault with the edges, but finding praises to the hilt if a skater makes a 90 degree free leg during a spiral. ho hum. At the senior level it is quite common and then what ? It's not a Jump. It's not a Spin. It's not Innovative. It's a decoration for the program not even as difficult as a change of edge spread eagle which are rarely seen. Why?

    Moves-in-the-Field including Spirals can be utilized in choreography, if an only if, there is a reason to use them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Thank gawd, I do not have to sit through 5 spirals in consecutive order any more.
    Or even 3, which was the maximum that counted for the last 4 years or so? No one was doing 5 spirals in a row recently because they wouldn't get credit for it.

    If we are talking about juveniles - YES - get them any which way to show they can lift a leg up in the air - edge or flat - and judge them accordingly..

    For the "elite" skaters, those who are consistently in the top 18 (certainly in the top 10), how much of a problem is this?
    Well, you can't have rules that apply only to the top 18 skaters in the world. The same rules have to apply for all skaters competing at the senior level. For one thing, you don't know before the season starts which of those few hundred skaters are going to end up in the top 18. (You can make a good prediction for some, but guessing between 18th and 28th before anyone skates? Not so easy.)

    Most of the comments I read are about never finding fault with the edges, but finding praises to the hilt if a skater makes a 90 degree free leg during a spiral. ho hum.
    Are you talking about comments by fans? The rules are for the skaters, not the fans.
    90 degrees (i.e., the skating leg straight up and down and the free leg parallel to the ice) is the minimum to qualify as a spiral position. No one praises it to the hilt. Do you mean 180 degrees (free leg straight up to the ceiling)?

    At the senior level it is quite common and then what ? It's not a Jump. It's not a Spin. It's not Innovative.
    There were plenty of innovative spiral positions at the beginning of the new judging system. Then once the rules clarified what counted as a difficult variation and what didn't, lots of skaters started doing the positions that counted and no one did the ones that didn't earn extra points. Or uncommon difficult ones that became common. There has certainly been more variety in spiral positions than when there were no extra points for difficult positions. (And now there are no extra points for it any more -- so we'll see more basic positions but maybe more innovative connections between the spirals.)

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    They had the right idea with their reworking of how Spirals are scored, but the rules still need to be loosened up more. I would prefer if the element was defined as:

    * 1 or more Spiral positions performed for a total of at least 5 seconds in series (moves in the field between positions are fine), with at least 1 position being held for at least 3 seconds.

    * Charlottes should count when performed on the flat of the blade. (I mean COME ON, a fully extended charlotte is DIFFICULT just on the flat)
    I agree but I'm just partial to Charlottes. I know some people don't like them. But I'd be sad to see them disappear from programs because the rules don't give them points.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    90 degrees (i.e., the skating leg straight up and down and the free leg parallel to the ice) is the minimum to qualify as a spiral position.
    It is? I thought "spiral" just referred to the spiral pattern on an edge, regardless of position.

    Would that count for anything?

    If you bend your skating leg and lean back, you can achieve the illusion of a greater angle, especially in a foreward fan spiral.

    In this defining Michelle Kwan program (World Pro East of Eden) she does a forward to a backward spiral (starting at 2.01) with free leg not all that spectacular in amplitude, but the edge work, changing from one to the other plus finishing the spiral pattern with a little curlicue at the center, all on one foot, gives the element a Plus 3 GOE. Do you agree, or is that just 6.0 talk?

    Also, does the little circle with hand touching the ice at 0.41 count for anything? (This move is also a highlight feature in Fields of Gold).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS3FntkFAyU

    Do you mean 180 degrees (free leg straight up to the ceiling)?
    That's impossible, right? Not even Sasha does a true 180 degrees, even with hand assist.

    http://www.newchaptermedia.com/asset...ASHA-COHEN.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I agree but I'm just partial to Charlottes. I know some people don't like them. But I'd be sad to see them disappear from programs because the rules don't give them points.
    They won't disappear from programs because the rules don't give them points if performed on a flat.

    They didn't count as part of a spiral sequence under 6.0 judging if performed on a flat either, yet people used them then. As connecting moves, not as official parts of the spiral sequence. Or they tried to achieve the position on an edge.

    That continued to be true under IJS rules with levels. If the skater could hold a steady penchee position on an edge she'd include it in her spiral sequence as a difficult variation. If she could only do it on a flat, but it was a strong move for her, she'd include it as a transition.

    That was the case under 6.0, it was the case under IJS with features for spiral sequences, and no doubt it will continue to be the case under IJS with choreo spiral sequences.

    I seem to remember Sasha Cohen doing three spiral positions on edges in her short program, followed by a Charlotte on a flat. I think it was somewhere around 2004, so during the transition between judging systems.

    In some forum some judge -- I can't remember where or who -- was asked about whether the Charlotte contributed to the difficulty of the spiral sequence. He said no, it didn't count as part of the spiral sequence because it wasn't on an edge, but it did make for a spectacular transition.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    They didn't count as part of a spiral sequence under 6.0 judging if performed on a flat either, yet people used them then. As connecting moves, not as official parts of the spiral sequence.
    There was no "official part" of the spiral sequence in the LP, however. That's where they got used much more frequently. They should count as a spiral position when on the flat because of the difficulty and beauty of the maneuver. How is it more impressive to see some lame position like what Miki Ando does just because it's on a slight edge?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    There was no "official part" of the spiral sequence in the LP, however.
    Under IJS there was.

    They should count as a spiral position when on the flat because of the difficulty and beauty of the maneuver. How is it more impressive to see some lame position like what Miki Ando does just because it's on a slight edge?
    The definition of "spiral" is a sustained edge (with the free foot at least hip height). The whole point is that if you hold the edge long enough, the curve will decrease in diameter, i.e., spiral in.

    If there's no curve, by definition it's not a spiral, regardless of how beautiful it is.

    There are plenty of beautiful connecting moves in figure skating that are not spirals. E.g., Ina Bauer as mentioned in the initial post.

    And not all moves that meet the definition of a Charlotte would also meet your approval for their beauty.

    Different skaters have different body types.

    A move can be difficult without being beautiful, or beautiful without being difficult. Or both, which should earn the most points. Or neither, which should earn the fewest.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Zzzz, semantics. The Charlotte deserves to be called a Spiral even if on the flat. Moving across the ice with your free leg that high up in a non-catch position is a spiral, regardless of it meeting the textbook definition. It's more difficult than a mere ina bauer.

    As for not all Charlottes being beautiful - the skater wouldn't get the GOE if they attempted the move in that case so it's not an issue.

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