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Thread: The new system of allowing 3 skaters to go to Worlds 2012

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The new system of allowing 3 skaters to go to Worlds 2012

    Just an example of the US Ladies.

    Suppose Mirai and Rachael score 13 (6th & 7th) place at Worlds 2011. They total 13 and both will be qualified to skate in 2012. That 13 is not enough to send another skater to Worlds 2012.

    I believe the USFS is stuck in a catch 22, or they must have a Winner (1st Place) to automatically have a 3rd skater whose placement will have to add up to 18 for 2013.

    Yuna KIM can have 3 skaters but the Korean Fed has to send them to the Quali Round.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Just an example of the US Ladies.

    Suppose Mirai and Rachael score 13 (6th & 7th) place at Worlds 2011. They total 13 and both will be qualified to skate in 2012. That 13 is not enough to send another skater to Worlds 2012.
    I think that's wrong. If Mirai and Rachael score 13, the US sends three ladies to worlds 2012.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Just an example of the US Ladies.

    Suppose Mirai and Rachael score 13 (6th & 7th) place at Worlds 2011. They total 13 and both will be qualified to skate in 2012. That 13 is not enough to send another skater to Worlds 2012.

    I believe the USFS is stuck in a catch 22, or they must have a Winner (1st Place) to automatically have a 3rd skater whose placement will have to add up to 18 for 2013.

    Yuna KIM can have 3 skaters but the Korean Fed has to send them to the Quali Round.
    A few clarifications:

    1.) The system of getting three (or two) skaters haven't changed.

    Three skaters (top two skaters placements factored) -- placements of a total of 13 =3 placements a total of at least 28 = 2 and less than 28 (a rare feat, would require some crazy bombing by all three skaters) = one.

    Two skaters (both placements factored) -- same as the system for three skaters.

    One skater (sole placement factored) -- a top 2 finish gets three skaters; a top 10 finish gets two skaters.

    2.) Now the question of how many of those entries directly qualify is a whole different matter. The direct entries are given to federations with the top 18 placements in the previous worlds. No adding required.

    So while Japan's top two skaters earned 3 skaters for both the women and men, the women get all direct entries because Mao, Miki and Akiko all finished in the top 18. The men do not because Oda finished in 25th (and hence out of the top 18).

    Joesitz, using your U.S. example. If Mirai and Rachael (or any other combination of 2 U.S. skaters) manage to get three skaters, there is no way to get around that the third skater will have to do a qualifying round in the 2012 Worlds. The premise is simple: there was not a third skater for the U.S. last year to place in the top 18. But it's impossible that it would have to send a second skater to QR because the combinations to get to 13 (i.e. enough placement for three skaters) puts two skaters within the top 18. (Possible combos for two skaters to get three skaters: 1-12/2-11/3-10/4-9/5-8/6-7).

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^
    Having trouble with this one as I did at the beginning of the other.

    If the US sends 2 (ladies) skaters as they are likely to do, and their total placements are 13 or less, they still can get 3 skaters for the following Worlds. That would mean there is no change in the original system for getting 3 skaters, and we can still look forward to having 3 Ladies for the following Worlds.

    However, in the following Worlds, sending 3 skaters must total 28(?) to continue sending 3. I thought it was 18. If 28 is correct, Mirai and Rachel with a total of 13 would need a third skater to be placed no higher than 15th to maintain the 3 slots.

    If the above is correct, I feel better about the US Ladies. Hopefully the 3 Men, will total 28. It should not be difficult. Nobi just had one of those baaaad days, it happens to all.

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    skating philosopher
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ^^^
    Having trouble with this one as I did at the beginning of the other.

    If the US sends 2 (ladies) skaters as they are likely to do, and their total placements are 13 or less, they still can get 3 skaters for the following Worlds. That would mean there is no change in the original system for getting 3 skaters, and we can still look forward to having 3 Ladies for the following Worlds.

    However, in the following Worlds, sending 3 skaters must total 28(?) to continue sending 3. I thought it was 18. If 28 is correct, Mirai and Rachel with a total of 13 would need a third skater to be placed no higher than 15th to maintain the 3 slots.

    If the above is correct, I feel better about the US Ladies. Hopefully the 3 Men, will total 28. It should not be difficult. Nobi just had one of those baaaad days, it happens to all.
    I think you're hung up on the 18 number. 18th is only the minimum placement a federation's skater has to earn to get a direct entry into the following year's Worlds roster.

    AS FAR AS EARNING WORLDS SPOTS:

    Top two placements adding up less than 13 means 1.) A 3-skater federation to keep 3 spots 2.) A two-skater federation to earn three spots.

    Top two placements equaling Less than 13 or more than 28 means: 1.) A three-skater federation to loses a spot the following year. 2.) A two-skater federation keeps two spots.

    Two two placements equaling less than 28 means: A three-skater federation or A two-skater federation will only get to send one skater the following year.

    A 11th place or lower placement means: A one-skater federation will not gain any extra spots.

    A 10th place or higher placement means: A one-skater federation can send two skaters next year.

    A top two placement means : A one-skater federation can send three skaters next year.

    The system of determining the number of skaters a federation can send has not changed. The rule only applies to which of those skaters have to skate a qualifying round and which ones get a direct entry.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 01-06-2011 at 12:23 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    OK, I think I'm closing in on this.

    Alissa and Mirai go to 2011 Worlds. Alissa gets 7th, Mirai gets 6th. The US gets three ladies for 2012.

    In 2012 the US sends Christina Gao, Agnez Zawadski and Brittney Rizo to Worlds. Whichever of these three is lowest-rated in the ISU rankings must skate the qualifying round. The other two begin their adventure with the short program.

    Right?

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Correct. Can we please stop making this so difficult (between this and the other thread)?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Can we please stop making this so difficult.
    Youth speaks. Us old minds have to hear the same thing over and over before it starts to sink in.

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    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    To make it simple, they should just let the top three in each discipline in each country (in each country that has a top three, that is) go to worlds, and the lowest-ranked skater can skate the Q round. Only in an Olympic year should they use the number qualifying system.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    To make it simple, they should just let the top three in each discipline in each country (in each country that has a top three, that is) go to worlds, and the lowest-ranked skater can skate the Q round. Only in an Olympic year should they use the number qualifying system.
    ^ I think they are more interested in making it fair than in making it simple. If a country (USA in men's, for instance) qualifies for three spots with all three skaters in the top 18, why should any of them have to skate in the qualifying round?

    All skaters from qualified nations who got in the top 18 are exempt from qualifying. Why should US number three or Japan lady number three be treated differently (worse) than skaters from another country?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz
    However, in the following Worlds, sending 3 skaters must total 28(?) to continue sending 3. I thought it was 18. If 28 is correct, Mirai and Rachel with a total of 13 would need a third skater to be placed no higher than 15th to maintain the 3 slots.
    Just to make sure that we are all on the same page (finally ) about this scenario:

    At 2012 worlds, Mirai gets 7th and Rachael gets 6th, with Ashley as the third girl. Then the U.S. gets three ladies at 2013 worlds no matter what.

    Case 1. Ashley gets 18th or better. All three of the US ladies, whoever they turn out to be, go directly through to the short program in 2013.

    Case 2. Ashley gets 19th or worse. In 2013 the lowest-ranked lady on the 2012 US team, whoever she may be, must skate in the qualifying round.
    Last edited by Mathman; 01-07-2011 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    To make it simple, they should just let the top three in each discipline in each country (in each country that has a top three, that is) go to worlds, and the lowest-ranked skater can skate the Q round.
    I'm not sure what you're saying here by "each country that has a top three," do you mean each country that earned three slots for that year, or each country that has at least three senior-level skaters?

    What about skaters from countries with less than three entries? Do they have to skate the qual round or not? How is that determined?

    Only in an Olympic year should they use the number qualifying system.
    By "the number qualifying system" are you referring to the numbers of skaters each country is allowed at Worlds, based on the previous year's results? Or are the "numbers" in this phrase the minimum qualifying scores?

    By "Only in an Olympic year" do you mean that limits on the number of skaters allowed to compete should apply only to Olympics and not to Worlds? Or does it also apply to Worlds in Olympic years but not in other years?

    Please clarify what you're proposing.

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    Trixie Schuba's biggest fan! blue dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Please clarify what you're proposing.
    1. Countries with three or more per discipline at Nationals will qualify its top three skaters to World Championships. No minimum points, no 7+6=13.

    2. If you don't have the three, then you send your skaters to worlds.

    3. Only skaters skating in Q round will be the following- the third place skater in each "team", and skaters from countries who are making a first-time world championships appearance, or a first appearance in a while.

    4. The number system used (13 points) should only be used for the Olympic games. In other sports, it is only for the Olympic games that they use a qualifying system. Otherwise, in swimming, it is always the top 2 in each event. In gymnastics, the top 6. In fencing, the top 4...

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue dog View Post
    1. Countries with three or more per discipline at Nationals will qualify its top three skaters to World Championships. No minimum points, no 7+6=13.

    2. If you don't have the three, then you send your skaters to worlds.

    3. Only skaters skating in Q round will be the following- the third place skater in each "team", and skaters from countries who are making a first-time world championships appearance, or a first appearance in a while.
    You realize this would allow 60, 70, 80 ladies to start at the Worlds short program and then requiring maybe 20 more to qualify for . . . what remaining spots?

    The goal is to keep the short program to a manageable size, about 30 skaters, instead of the 50+ who competed last year.

    Instead, you're proposing to make the short program much larger to begin with, which defeats the purpose of having a qualifying round at all.

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    On the Ice
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    I personally would like to see more skaters from different countries compete, without any minimum points required.
    These are WORLD Championships, where the whole world competes, not only the 5 or 6 big federations.
    Why not making the World Championships to a real big event with 60-80 skaters per discipline, at least in singles? The Championships can be held for 2 weeks instead of 1 week, with qualifying rounds in all 4 disciplines in the first week, SP and FP in the second week. But I know that this will never happen, unfortunately! A girl can dream!

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