The Senior "B" Competitions

[Joesitz]

Doris brought this up on another thread that to gain points in World Standings for the ISU, getting some points through "B" Comps will be a big help. But are those "B" Comps are not spread out among the Globe, and those that are (few) are in countries faaar apart.

Which of the following are ISU sanctioned?

Those Canadian small comps? any "B" rating or not? I can't see European skaters flying to Toronto to skate in a "B" comp.

Anything "B" in the US? MidAtlantics? Detroit? Liberty? Colorado?, Sun Valley, California? Non american skaters may use these since they train in the US.

I think there is the Japan Open. Is it a "B" comp? No Korea or Thailand.

Anyway, How fair is this for ALL skaters, especially non-European skaters who have to travel enough just for the 4CCs?

And bear in mind all Judging Panels are not Equal!!!

[Mathman]

I think the language “B events” is informal. The actual description of the ISU ranking system speaks of “ISU International calendar events.”

Here are the events that are listed on the ISU international calendar for 2010.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/pa...v-list,00.html

All of the events are in Europe.

In order to qualify for this designation the event must have a total of at least 8 ladies, 8 men, 6 dance couples and 5 pairs. Each discipline must have skaters from at least four different countries (three in pairs), I don’t see any requirements for the judges, but the three people on the tech panel must be from three different counties.

Events like the Nordic championships and the University championships that not all skaters can go to, are excluded.

Of the senior events listed on the 2010 calendar I do not know how many fulfilled these requirements. It would difficult to hold such a competition outside of Europe.

[Sylvia]

On a related note, USA's Mary Beth Marley/Rockne Brubaker made their international debut as a pair team at the Nestle Nesquik Cup in Torun, Poland this week. Four Senior pairs were listed in the starting order and needed to score the minimum TES (17 in SP and 30 in FS) if they wanted to be eligible to compete at Europeans/Four Continents/Worlds this season. The RUS (Mukhortova/Blanchard) and HUN pairs did not show. Marley/Brubaker won (56.51 in SP, 99.96 in FS, 156.47 total) and achieved their necessary TES scores, while the BUL team got the minimum TES in the SP but not the FS so they cannot compete at Europeans (they were provisionally listed on the Euros roster).

Senior B scores don't count for the ISU Season Best Scores list but if the comp. meets the ISU requirements (refer to Mathman's post above), the top 5 finishers in the Senior B receive ISU World Standings points. However, Marley/Brubaker won't get these points (250 for 1st) for their win in Poland today because only 2 teams competed.

[Mathman]

Thanks for that post, Sylvia. With a score of 156 they could be competitive at U.S. Nationals for a Four Continents or Worlds assignment!

But I had understood that in the case of a new pairing, they didn't have to qualify if one partner had qualified last season with a different partner? I guess I was srong about that.

Senior B scores don't count for the ISU Season Best

Another useful fact. Thank you.

[dorispulaski]

ISU Communication 1629 describes the World Standing Rules.
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1949

2.3.4 International Senior Calendar Competitions: The two best results by points per season; the best four results by points over a period not longer than 2 completed seasons plus the current season;

1.4 International Senior Competitions, provided there are minimum 8 single skaters, respectively 6 Ice Dance couples out of four ISU Members present respectively 5 Pairs out of three ISU Members.

1.5 Events, mentioned under paragraph 1.4, in which the Technical Panel (Technical Controller and the two (2) Technical Specialists) are from three (3) different ISU Members. (It is recommended that participating ISU Members, before entering their skaters, check with the organizing Members of International Competitions whether this requirement will be fulfilled).

1.6 Regional International Competition (e.g. Nordics, Asian Winter Games etc.) or competitions, which are open only for special groups of skaters (e.g. Universiade, events with invitations only to designated Members (except the ISU Grand Prix events), etc.) will not count for the ISU World Standings/Season’s World Ranking (The International Competitions falling into this category will be identified in the Event Calendar published on the ISU website www.isu.org).

So you don't have to have all 4 disciplines at the event. NRW Dance Trophy qualifies. I am not at all sure whether Nordics now qualifies, as explicitly Senior Men and Senior Ladies are now open to all members. I wonder whether the organizers of Nordics have opened the entries up as a result of these rules about the standings? The announcement for Nordics does not claim World Standings points will be granted in men and ladies.

Standings points are given for places 1 through 5 for these Senior B events.

The number of points, by event, by place in that event, are listed in the same communication.

Events shown on the calendar (link posted by Mathman) between Jan. 1st and Worlds were

Nesquik Cup (Poland) as listed by Sylvia
Bavarian Open in Oberstdorf (all ISU countries may send competitors, but the announcement does not say whether the competition will yield World Standings points)
Mont Blanc Trophy (The announcement says it will be eligible for World Standings points)
International Challenge Cup in the Hague (The announcement is not yet linked to the ISU calendar).

[Mathman]

OK, I can't let this go by. The Nestles Hot Chocolate Cup?

[dorispulaski]

And that is worse than the Smucker's US Figure Skating Championships how?

[Selina11]

Do the Asian Winter games count for the minimum score?

[Blades of Passion]

OK, I can't let this go by. The Nestles Hot Chocolate Cup?

Best competition of the year.

[Joesitz]

Do the Asian Winter games count for the minimum score?

That's what I've been trying to find out and the reason I started the thread. However, Mathman said only European competitions can count towards the ISU standings, and Sylvia mentioned only the top 5 finishers in a comp.

What I would like to know is what the reason is for European "B" comps only?

(Ya know I'm not one for sucking up Rules or Procedures without an Explanation.)

[dorispulaski]

The Asian Winter Games don't count for World or Seasonal Standings, because they are regional. However, I think they should count toward the minimum score (just as 4CC's and Europeans do, despite being regional competitions) as all ISU rules are followed and there should be judges from enough countries and ISU callers/technical committee, and they are on the ISU calendar as an ISU sanctioned event.

The reason for European B's only is because only the European feds have stepped up to the plate to hold them. The USFSA is supposed to have a group studying have Senior B's here, but I haven't heard about their results yet.

We discussed this in a previous thread and reasons people gave for the US and Canada not having Senior B's were, AFAIR:

1. Who is going to pay what expenses?
2. The expenses of housing the judges and callers
3. Conflict with the fund raising summer competitions held by individual clubs (Liberty, etc)
4. Worries about whether all skaters would have equal access to such comps
5. Worries that rich skaters could 'buy' their way into such competitions by paying the fees

Most of the problems seemed to me to be that there are a lot of people vested in the current situation looking to find reasons to say, "No we can't do it," and not enough people who are asking, "What do we have to do to have a Senior B competition, and how do we do it?" BTW, that's just my opinion.

This year we see how this might work:
Teams like Volosozhar and Trankov, Russian champions, have to find an available Senior B between the date of Olympics and the date of Worlds, if they want to compete at Worlds, in order to get a score to qualify them. This is fine for them, and doesn't involve jet lag and overseas travel. A team like Marley and Brubaker have to travel to Europe to get their score.

US skaters & Japanese skaters are at a huge disadvantage if they wish to win one of the prizes for high season standing. A good example are the ice dance standings:

Currently they are:
Pechalat & Bourzat 1620 (1st at one GP event, 2nd at the GPF, 1st at two Senior B's)
Hoffman & Zavozin 1307 (2nd place at Cor, 6th place at GPF, 1st place at one Senior B, 2nd place at another Senior B)
Davis & White 1200 (1st at one GP event, 1st at GPF)

D&W only make up 80 points on P&B by beating them at the GPF, so they are ceding them 420 points because they have not done any Senior B's. Even if D&W win 4CC's and P&B don't win but finish high at Worlds and Europeans, P&B will still win the season bonus based on Senior B's.

[SkateFiguring]

The almighty Canadian and US federations just to have make ISU count provinces and states as nations for Sinior B competitions, seeing Mexico is not much of a skating nation.

[blue dog]

What if instead of coming up with new Senior B competitions, they do what other sports (like fencing, tennis), where they hold lower-level contests during their high-profile events. For example-- All of the tennis Grand Slams have events for the top professionals. During that time, they are also holding junior and age-group events. In 1990, Skate Canada International tested out an interpretive event, where competitors focused on interpretation. They were only allowed to complete double jumps.

What USFS and Skate Canada can do would be to hold Senior B contests the same weekend as Skate America or Skate Canada. The invited seniors skating the Grand Prix event will compete in the Grand Prix event. Those skating in the "Senior B" competition can hold their competition in the practice arena. Judges will already be there for the other events, so, let's say Yuri Balkov of Ukraine will judge dance for the Grand Prix event. Then, he can judge the ladies event in the Senior B.

[SkateFiguring]

What if instead of coming up with new Senior B competitions, they do what other sports (like fencing, tennis), where they hold lower-level contests during their high-profile events. For example-- All of the tennis Grand Slams have events for the top professionals. During that time, they are also holding junior and age-group events. In 1990, Skate Canada International tested out an interpretive event, where competitors focused on interpretation. They were only allowed to complete double jumps.

What USFS and Skate Canada can do would be to hold Senior B contests the same weekend as Skate America or Skate Canada. The invited seniors skating the Grand Prix event will compete in the Grand Prix event. Those skating in the "Senior B" competition can hold their competition in the practice arena. Judges will already be there for the other events, so, let's say Yuri Balkov of Ukraine will judge dance for the Grand Prix event. Then, he can judge the ladies event in the Senior B.

I think your idea is based on the "B" label which is not an ISU term. Your plan calls for the "B" events to be attached to the GP events as opportunities for "B level" skaters which also means the "A level" GP competitors cannot participate in them.

My understanding is that the so-called "B" competitions are simply non ISU sponsored competitions with enough international participation to be considered by ISU in its ranking of skaters. So ISU spells out how international in scope such an event needs to be. Unfortunately, such events only suit Europe with many skating nations concentrated in a relatively small geographical area to make them feasible, especially financially. There are not enough skating nations with advanced skaters in the Americas and there are not so many northern nations in Asia either, especially with Russian skaters located mostly in the European region of the country. In either case, there are simply not enough close by skating nations to make events in N America or Asia more than regional and economically worthwhile. (Thus my earlier joke about counting provinces and states as nations, as they would be comparable to European nations in geographical scopes.)

Having conjunct competitions with the GP events will not even the playing field for the world class competitive skaters.

[Mathman]

With all the international skaters training in the U.S., I think it would not be impossible to attract a satisfactory field, if any of the U.S. venues wanted to go that route.

The Liberty event had men from Canada, USA, Italy and France, for instance, and a lady from Hungary.

The problem is what Doris said on this thread and Sylvia on the other. The clubs that host these events make money off them. If they were connected with the ISU, they would be required to incur greater expenses and to share their profits.