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Thread: Any predictions for Europeans?

  1. #31
    - * - blue_idealist's Avatar
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    I don't get why people are saying the Canton teams don't have artistic expression and only focus on elements. If that was true, all their programs would look the same and they all have very different programs with different 'character'.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillyfranz View Post
    very long post #36
    Although I rather like Canton quartet, I think chillyfranz has a point when he notes how CoP ice dance has changed. Sometimes it does seem like CoP ice dance is all about twizzles and performing lifts with a stopwatch.

  3. #33
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I don't think that there is any question about COP having changed dance. Like all changes, IMO, some are for the good, and some for the not so good.

    However, as to transitions: last year's version of the rules gave very few positive points for transitions, and had negative points for mistakes during transitions. It's not surprising that you saw less transitions done by the skaters last year. Early versions of COP at least didn't have penalties without rewards for transitions (especially given that having an inadequate number of transitions doesn't cost more than .5 because of the way PCS scores are given all in a big block of nearly identical numbers.)

    Both V&M and D&W have added more transitions to their FD's this year, because both teams have said in interviews that the sport needs them. I think this is an evolving area of COP.

    I don't like the stopwatch thing for the lifts at all. It's amazing how well most all the dancers in general do with this though. It's becoming less and less distracting, as they have become acclimated to these timing rules.

    And another thing about the Canton teams: in general, they have arrived at their first competition actually prepared, as well as they were able to be prepared, given physical issues. This is something P&B have only done this year, F&S surely didn't do this year, and the Kerrs better this year than in the past, but still some way to go. F&S should have definitely practiced more in those costumes before CoC, for sure.

    This was the first year D&W didn't arrive at their first competition in their best shape (other than 2007/2008 when they had an injury in August)=they said they had about a 6 week delay in training due to SOI ending late, and needing a rest before starting over.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 01-22-2011 at 06:01 AM.

  4. #34
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    I think that it is difficult to say that the FD of Virtue/Moir has no artistry
    Davis/White really has no inner connection, they are acrobatic show dancers. Their FD this year is a trial to change it a little bit with the "not-showy", technically difficult Tango program, where they failed to show the necessary connection and feeling until this time, even if the technical difficulty is there ( a little bit ala Kokhlova-Novitski in the past).

    The program of Pechalat/Bourzat is very "Russian-like"this year in term of historical choreography of ice dancing, charming, but NOT genuine emotions are involved. The same kind of Show dance like Davis/Whites's but in a different "Russian" way (even if both P/B and D/W has Russian coaches).

    The "timeless eternity" is not there, but i IS there when V/M dancing on the ice.

    Anyway, most of these teams are not competing in the Europeans, this thread is not in the right place here

    About the Europeanchampionships:
    I think that Pechalat/Bourzat has find the way to the judges and spectator's heart, they can win.
    Faiella/Scali's technique is far superior to any of the recent European team, but their coach and choreographer need to find the way to reach the people's heart to be more succesful. I think the result will Show the lack of Linichuk's influence in Russia, compare to Zhulin's one.

    Bobrova/Soloviev doesn't seem to be a couple which can be the No 1. Russian couple for a long time. Some of the other teams will catch this position soon (maybe right now, and quite surprisingly it can be Riazanova-Tkachenko). This competition is also to decide the future and the rankig of the Russian teams. They desperately want to (have to !!) find the best to create a big star of them as soon s possible. They hoped to make it by Ilynikh/Katsapalov, but they seem to slow down quite a bit in their technical improvement ( to say the less). So, maybe Riazanova-Tkachenko? They are very interested in to check the International reaction about their 3 couples. It seems like also the Russian Federation didn't really and definitely decided which couple to support the most.

    I quite like to put the Hoffman/Zhavozin assembly to this mix. Their FD is really innovative, unusual, modern, and (if they can menage that) technically challenging this year, showing a LOTS OF potential and artistry. They can put themselves on or close to the podium .
    Last edited by bigdeal; 01-22-2011 at 07:39 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillyfranz View Post
    Now I know I having a conversation with the Bourne/Kraatz fan
    Not really. When I was younger and less knowledgeable, I did assume they were robbed. Having seen them now, I can't say they were ever robbed. Certainly not by Grishuk/Platov - who were amazing. Not by Anissina/Peizarat or Krylova/Osiannikov (I can never spell his name) who I quite liked (and even enjoyed the jungle FD that no one else did).

    In the typical Westerner fashion programming the mind with advocation of Tracey Wilson to belive dance of the past decade is rigged with wronged results who gave wrong medals to only the evil dealing countries. Now I know where you coming from
    So all medals earned have been completely deserved?

    Believe or not, and I don't have expectation you do, but dancers of the past, the champions, I talk 10, 15, 20 years ago, were great dancers. The Westerner persepective is cultured to see only these dancers as the dramatic theatrical funnies who have susipicious technical ability because these westerners only choose to see what they want to mock in so-called funnies. Mock them or not, they had technique and complete programs. Westerners were inspired by lots of the Soviet, British dancers who make the way for them to step on. You know, I read Tracey Wilson's google interview. She say Natalia Bestemianova was her idol and one of the best skater/ice dancer ever who had everything : technique, athleticism, expression and a dancer to the truest spirit . That probably surprise you a lot
    I always prefered Klimova/Ponamarenko to Bestemianova/Bukin, to be honest. But I haven't seen enough B/B to really be fair.

    Let me start to saying what I DON"T want ice dancing to be: my dread is that ice dance look completely differeent now than 10 . 15, year ago. And I mean different, I mean a completely different discipline. Instead of dance we see program by element by lift . Simply, it all boils down to element and lifts. Transitions are braught to the side like a side dish .Let's intersparse a few here and over there because the rule say we have to have this many in the program. Then, time it so 4 mins, 30 sec have elapsed and we have put as many of these as we posisbly can with-in this time frame. Although, to be fair, iSU is apportioned to blame
    You know, what I love about ice dancing now is that the disjunction "elements" and "transitions" are virtually meaningless in terms of measure of artistry and athleticism. Everything can be both. So Virtue/Moir's crazy lifts? Also gorgeous artistically.

    I want to see ice dancing today go forward , that is, have the dancers push the limits (technique, steps, lifts ) but still respect what the sport is/was/use to be. Let me illustriate: Ursula/Lolita do crazy lifts (which is great, no problem) but the rest of the program to be in the same vein- element, element, element, crazy lift, crazy lift, crazy lift . Crazy lifts are great and is need them to get points which is understand in the new system. But if the completeness, harmony, balance in the program is not there (which D/W and V/M are classic example) then it is becoming not dance but program by elements. Also, I think having a dance composition is more harder for the dancers than having the now program by element: this will make the dancers be aware of the structure they dance to, how the dance elements fit in with the concept and be this will be feel more organic to the real dancers. For the not-real dancers, or those who have no wish to be ice dancers but ice acrobats, then those program by elements are suit for them.
    Now I don't even think you know what "completeness, harmony and balace" means - or certainly not in the way I do. But anyway, agree to disagree with this one simply because I really don't have any understanding of what you're trying to say.

    But briefly: I do think that ice dancing history (where there would be no movement in standings from compulsory/OD/FD) has, regardless of whether you think it's true or not, given ice dancing the impression that it's not about quality or quantity but waiting your turn. When I watch a performance by a team like Drobiazko/Vanagas, I wonder how they could ever lose to Lobacheva/Averbukh. When I see a team pushing the envelope like the Duchesnays, I think it's a shame that they didn't find the support from their home federation that they deserved (and this is a textbook example of someone not fitting the mold of the times and losing out because of it). I think COP has done wonders for dance. I think it's the opposite of spoonfeeding, actually, but encouraging understanding, whereas before it was about ignoring understanding.

    But just so we're clear, when you say "I did not say this" are you stating the opposite (that you do not believe the things I mentioned?)

  6. #36
    Rinkside
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    LADIES

    1) Kostner - if she manages to skate clean, she should win by a long shot. Her marks in the GP indicate that she is competitive, and especially at Euros, this will be the case.

    2) Korpi - Great elegance and programs- enough to hold onto silver.

    3) Leonova or Makarova- depending who skates best that day. Hopefully Makarova can take the bronze, however.

    It's too bad Lepisto won't be competing here- she could really turn up the heat against Kostner (ie. 2009)
    Last edited by ubiq75; 01-22-2011 at 01:16 PM.

  7. #37
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    My predictions/hopes for women:

    1) Korpi - my all time favourite. If she makes clean programs, she'll have all the possibilities to win.
    2) Kostner. I love the Debussy program.
    3) Meier. Skater with elegance and style. I hope she's ok with her healthy.

  8. #38
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    While I can appreciate the Duchesnay's approach,I have to say that at moments I found them particularly overmarked for their technical weaknesses.
    There are teams that are great technicians,couples that have a specific approach to dance and interesting choreographic input but may not be such good skaters and couples that have both.I love Usova/Zhulin and as a kid thought they were better than K/P because I found their programs more appealing, but years later I can understand and appreciate K/P much better
    I have no problem with V/M programs because I find them unbelievable as skaters and one of the rare couples that possess both technical and artistic qualities.Whatever you may think of their choreography it's difficult not to admire them as skaters.
    But I have a problem with the CoP.It leaves no place for real transitions and footwork.I can't watch a 6 feet guy catching his foot and twizzle Let the dancers invent new moves, new twizzles,new footwork and then judge them.I miss that in ice dancing.
    I can remember a lot of beautiful programs in the past that didn't win a medal but I had such a good time with them.I really miss that and I hope they can give more freedom to the skaters.

    I wouldn't be surprised if B/S ended up with a medal.I must be one of the few fans that appreciate them as skaters, and I can't understand why people dislike them.If it's their looks, well that's subjective.Of course their FD isn't a popular type of FD, it doesn't go well with people that have a certain idea about what european and russian ice dance must be.
    Riazanova/Tkatchenko are a good team as well, I prefer them to I/K to be honest, but they give me this DomShab vibe, maybe because of Odintsovo etc.I/K are a work in progress and I don't want them to be burnt before they're ready.

    Generally I don't get why we have to draw lines and put labels on ice dancing.For me, there is not European and N.American ice dancing, but good and bad ice dancing.I can't think that a Russian couple could skate to Mahler the way V/M did because their way of thinking and emoting is totally different.And that's all as far as I'm concerned.

    Pechalat/Bourzat:I found them undermarked for many years, especially two years ago.This season they went the 'russian way'.They have russian programs, they don't aren't russian though.I much preferred them as they were, but I can understand that they have to do what it takes to finally win a medal.
    Faiella/Scalli are a big question mark for me.Most of the times they have beautiful programs,but their only program that did something for me was their last FD.
    Last edited by alithia; 01-23-2011 at 01:51 PM.

  9. #39
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    alithia, can you pick a season and demonstrate the range of great dance programs you loved? Because the number of great programs that didn't win a medal really seems quite high over the past few years.

  10. #40
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    If I had to pick one season with many programs I enjoyed I'm afraid I'd go before the CoP..For example,it always comes to mind R/K Piazzolla tango or anything D/V have ever done and didn't win a medal for.I loved DenStav Sarabande that didn't even end into the top 5 If I remember correctly..

    But if we're talking about the CoP era I'd probably go to 2008 Europeans,since we're talking about Europeans, where I liked Capellini/LaNotte, Pechalat/Bourzat and the Kerrs more than most of the medalists that season.I absolutely loved C/L's Love Story that season.I think I enjoyed them more than F/S.Especially about the Kerrs,I can aknoweledge that they're not skating clean most of the times but their joy is contagious.You can feel they love what they're doing out there.
    I think we should start a discussion about great programs in the past...

  11. #41
    Rinkside andofan's Avatar
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    Sarah Meier's victory?

    This the first time the Euro ladies champ was NOT predicted by anyone to win, much less win a medal? Where are the underdog supporters?

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