I don't understand what Transition means. I thought is was doing a couple of step basics leading up to a jump including a Quad.Originally Posted by Bluebonnet
Without the steps leading up to a jump, the jump is performed the same way it is done at pracice. No music! Unfortunately, there is music involved in Figure Skating. GottaDance.
which was exactly my point. It is rather pointlessto give a skater a gold medal and sky marks and then point out afterwards in its tapes that this is a bad CoP program. And then give again the silver or platinum.I´m sure Gachinski will be heartbroken if ISU use his programs as example of bad COP program AFTER they give him the gold medal!And point out again the program didnt reflect them...etc
In greece we have a saying something like, after you walk away from the cash desk, no miscalculation can be claimed.
Getting the gold medal was, as always, based on the fact how other skaters skate in a particulat event, LOL. And after Plushenko won in 2006 OG there were lots and lots of postings about his freeskate programme. Nobody (as far as I remember) questioned his win, but his programme was not appreciated, except by blinded fans, of courseI´m sure Gachinski will be heartbroken if ISU use his programs as example of bad COP program AFTER they give him the gold medal!.
Last edited by Jaana; 01-19-2011 at 01:10 PM.
But that argument presuposes that the medal was given only to the program. It wasn't. A well-skated program in a poorly skated event is still worthy of recognition, regardless if it suits the rules. In the case of both Olympics, Plushenko undeniably outskated a whole host of skaters and deserved to beat them. That doesn't mean that his program is the ideal program to aim for for those hoping to construct a great COP program.which was exactly my point. It is rather pointlessto give a skater a gold medal and sky marks and then point out afterwards in its tapes that this is a bad CoP program. And then give again the silver or platinum.
In greece we have a saying something like, after you walk away from the cash desk, no miscalculation can be claimed.
According to the ISU:
Transitions/Linking Footwork & Movement
Definition:
The varied and/or intricate footwork, positions, movements, and holds that link all elements. In
singles, pairs, and synchronize skating this also includes the entrances and exits of technical elements.
Criteria:
Variety
Difficulty
Intricacy
Quality (including unison in Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
Balance of workload between partners (Pair Skating and Ice Dancing)
Variety of Dance holds (not excessive side by side and hand in hand – Ice Dancing)
Transitions can be short or long, including the use of blade, body, head, arms, legs as dictated by the
music. (Minimum use of cross-cuts)
Are you sure a great Cop designed program is always appreciated? Depends who is skating it. Otherwise the coaches and choreographers would compete instead.Nobody (as far as I remember) questioned his win, but his programme was not appreciated, except by blinded fans, of course
Actually the most blinded fans i know-leave the enthusiasm of the win aside- acknowledge the fact that Plush didnt skate it like euros 2005 for example and was a supbar performance and not a masterpiece of program that night, so I dont think what you claim is correct, I haven't met someone who said the opposite but then they have seen 2-3 godfathers more to compare. Does ISU take examples only from free skates of Olympics by the way?
I totally agree ImaginaryPogue with all your post, i didnt think of it that way. I was thinking about the marks not the result. Like we gave the skater 7-8 for choreo and transitions, but look this is not good choreography neither there is lot of transitions. This doesnt deserve an 8 but we gave him anyway, then we gave him again in the next Olys and now we teach you this is bad, dont try it at home. Thats what is was thinking about the tapes.
Actually, the transition score is much lower than a single quad jump in SP, like I said in the previous post. Transition score may or may not be higher than a single quad jump in LP because the PCS factor in LP is 2. The transition score a skater received in LP is doubled. However, a completely executed quad jump with a combo may well pass the transition score even in LP.
I'm completely aware that the skating needs to be well rounded in all areas because it's an accumulating of the points. My point was and is that there is no reason to go extra mile to emphasize the importance of transitions. Transition is just one of the five elements in PCS. It is as important as the rest of four elements. A quad jump is as important if not more important than transitions.
The arguement of no need for quad jumps because a skater could succeed without it sounds funny to me. If we follow that path of thinking, I could argue that a skater doesn't need transition at all (of course, it's not possible. A skater will have transitions, maybe a low transition score.) if he could make a few successful quad jumps in his program. Why not?Whether I like this kind of program or not is another question. But that transitions over rule quad jumps is not right. Sorry it's a little OT.
Back to Gachinski. I like him ...minus the pink gloves.
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 01-19-2011 at 02:31 PM.
Based on the way people talk about transitions you would think that the ISU rules said something like 1. spread eagle before a jump, ina bauer before a jump, split jump before a jump, kick before a jump -Chan rule, squat knee bend before a jump -Lysacek rule LOL. So called arm flailing would be a transitions under the ISU-it's a body movement! Even what Gachinski does and Mishin skaters do with throwing the arms up after a jump would count.
Can you quote the blinded fans who think the freskate was the skate of his life and the best COP program ever, or it's just your supposition? I'll be waiting for the quotes!Getting the gold medal was, as always, based on the fact how other skaters skate in a particulat event, LOL. And after Plushenko won in 2006 OG there were lots and lots of postings about his freeskate programme. Nobody (as far as I remember) questioned his win, but his programme was not appreciated, except by blinded fans, of course
By the way can someone explain who, when and why started the transitions mania? And why people paradoxically think that a program should be balanced but if you have transitions other elements can miss?
The hype machine around Mr. Chan started the transition mania (thank you, Lori Nichol)By the way can someone explain who, when and why started the transitions mania? And why people paradoxically think that a program should be balanced but if you have transitions other elements can miss?
I dont know the answer but they are so haunting me that especially last season everytime I read at work the word transistor I thought I had read transition and looked again.By the way can someone explain who, when and why started the transitions mania? And why people paradoxically think that a program should be balanced but if you have transitions other elements can miss?
Did it start with Buttle or Lysacek winning worlds? People who like them had to come up with something against the "NO QUAD!!" arguments and zeroed in on that? It has been a while since I listened to the commentary on the 2006 olympics by american announcers but I don't really remember anyone mentioning transitions even once! I don't listen to it because I don't need to hear an argument against Plushenko winning while he wins! LOL.
Agreed. It's unfortunate that we see such groupings - it's the same way people complain about Chan's intepretation scores being in the same range as his skating skills score. No one thinks they're equal, but judges seem to have a corridor in mind for PCS.
This either/or debate is really irritating. But a few notes.Actually, the transition score is much lower than a single quad jump in SP, like I said in the previous post. Transition score may or may not be higher than a single quad jump in LP because the PCS factor in LP is 2. The transition score a skater received in LP is doubled. However, a completely executed quad jump with a combo may well pass the transition score even in LP.
I'm completely aware that the skating needs to be well rounded in all areas because it's an accumulating of the points. My point was and is that there is no reason to go extra mile to emphasize the importance of transitions. Transition is just one of the five elements in PCS. It is as important as the rest of four elements. A quad jump is as important if not more important than transitions.
The arguement of no need for quad jumps because a skater could succeed without it sounds funny to me. If we follow that path of thinking, I could argue that a skater doesn't need transition at all (of course, it's not possible. A skater will have transitions, maybe a low transition score.) if he could make a few successful quad jumps in his program. Why not?
1. Transitions give you up to 30 points. Always have since the introduction of COP. This season, we've seen the quad give you 10.3 points (base value for quad toe). How many skaters have seen more points contributed to their total based on the quad vs transitions? Kevin Reynolds at Skate Canada (43.02 for his quads, excluding the GOE he earned for the combos). Anyone else?
2. Patrick Chan is showing us this season that it's not either/or (granted, he's also playing Russian Roulette with his landings, but that's another debate). Both he and Reynolds have delivered quads out of steps. Chan's keeping the crazy transitions and the high level footwork that was supposed to be impossible for quad skaters. So why exactly does the debate centre around transition vs quads? Of course a skater can excel without transitions with good quads. But I would hope that a system doesn't say that's the only way to win.
Can you quote someone who said that transitions make up for missed elements (plural)?By the way can someone explain who, when and why started the transitions mania? And why people paradoxically think that a program should be balanced but if you have transitions other elements can miss?
gmyers, when talking about Jeff Buttle's performance at 2005 Nationals, Tracy Wilson made a point of noting that the advantage he had over Emmanuel Sandhu was that he did transitions (link) and she explicitly stated that Sandhu would need to bring it with the quad and eight clean triples to win. He didn't. Now, I don't know if it began that early, but I do know people noted the same thing during Plushenko's LP in Torino. No, there was no argument against him winning. None. No rational person could do that. Remember, this was a competition in which only one skater had medal winning skate in both portions of the competition (Plushenko: Lambiel was 3rd and 4th; Buttle was 6th and 2nd; Lysacek was 10th and 3rd, Wier was 2nd and ??). He was a dominant skater that blew away the field.
Transition means all those steps between elements - jumps, spins, and step sequences - and is worth up to 10 points in the SP and 20 points in LP but of course no one scores near the max, the best being 8 point something in the SP and double that in the LP. So, yes a quad or a good 3A in the SP is worth more than the transition and a quad combo or an excellent quad in the LP could be worth as much as or more than the transition for most skaters. All in all, jumps account for most points in a skater's total scores, in the few seconds it takes to execute them all.
I think, however, some people probably think of Transition as the PCS segment of the scoring. I don't doubt good transitions contribute to other PC scores and vice versa.
What is wrong is awarding high transition scores to a few privileged quad jumping skaters whose programs are rather void of transitions. This, however, seems to be changing a little and we are seeing Joubert trying to add transition to his programs. I think Chan showing quad program with difficult transitions is affecting judges' perception and scoring. As well, the newer younger all around skaters are striving for similar level of complete choreography.
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