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The hype machine around Mr. Chan started the transition mania (thank you, Lori Nichol)
Gachinski aims to become Russia's next top skater
- Thread starter gsk8
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The hype machine around Mr. Chan started the transition mania (thank you, Lori Nichol)
Did it start with Buttle or Lysacek winning worlds? People who like them had to come up with something against the "NO QUAD!!" arguments and zeroed in on that? It has been a while since I listened to the commentary on the 2006 olympics by american announcers but I don't really remember anyone mentioning transitions even once! I don't listen to it because I don't need to hear an argument against Plushenko winning while he wins! LOL.
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Agreed. It's unfortunate that we see such groupings - it's the same way people complain about Chan's intepretation scores being in the same range as his skating skills score. No one thinks they're equal, but judges seem to have a corridor in mind for PCS.
Actually, the transition score is much lower than a single quad jump in SP, like I said in the previous post. Transition score may or may not be higher than a single quad jump in LP because the PCS factor in LP is 2. The transition score a skater received in LP is doubled. However, a completely executed quad jump with a combo may well pass the transition score even in LP.
I'm completely aware that the skating needs to be well rounded in all areas because it's an accumulating of the points. My point was and is that there is no reason to go extra mile to emphasize the importance of transitions. Transition is just one of the five elements in PCS. It is as important as the rest of four elements. A quad jump is as important if not more important than transitions.
The arguement of no need for quad jumps because a skater could succeed without it sounds funny to me. If we follow that path of thinking, I could argue that a skater doesn't need transition at all (of course, it's not possible. A skater will have transitions, maybe a low transition score.) if he could make a few successful quad jumps in his program. Why not?Whether I like this kind of program or not is another question. But that transitions over rule quad jumps is not right. Sorry it's a little OT.
This either/or debate is really irritating. But a few notes.
1. Transitions give you up to 30 points. Always have since the introduction of COP. This season, we've seen the quad give you 10.3 points (base value for quad toe). How many skaters have seen more points contributed to their total based on the quad vs transitions? Kevin Reynolds at Skate Canada (43.02 for his quads, excluding the GOE he earned for the combos). Anyone else?
2. Patrick Chan is showing us this season that it's not either/or (granted, he's also playing Russian Roulette with his landings, but that's another debate). Both he and Reynolds have delivered quads out of steps. Chan's keeping the crazy transitions and the high level footwork that was supposed to be impossible for quad skaters. So why exactly does the debate centre around transition vs quads? Of course a skater can excel without transitions with good quads. But I would hope that a system doesn't say that's the only way to win.
Can you quote someone who said that transitions make up for missed elements (plural)?
gmyers, when talking about Jeff Buttle's performance at 2005 Nationals, Tracy Wilson made a point of noting that the advantage he had over Emmanuel Sandhu was that he did transitions (link) and she explicitly stated that Sandhu would need to bring it with the quad and eight clean triples to win. He didn't. Now, I don't know if it began that early, but I do know people noted the same thing during Plushenko's LP in Torino. No, there was no argument against him winning. None. No rational person could do that. Remember, this was a competition in which only one skater had medal winning skate in both portions of the competition (Plushenko: Lambiel was 3rd and 4th; Buttle was 6th and 2nd; Lysacek was 10th and 3rd, Wier was 2nd and ??). He was a dominant skater that blew away the field.
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Transition means all those steps between elements - jumps, spins, and step sequences - and is worth up to 10 points in the SP and 20 points in LP but of course no one scores near the max, the best being 8 point something in the SP and double that in the LP. So, yes a quad or a good 3A in the SP is worth more than the transition and a quad combo or an excellent quad in the LP could be worth as much as or more than the transition for most skaters. All in all, jumps account for most points in a skater's total scores, in the few seconds it takes to execute them all.
I think, however, some people probably think of Transition as the PCS segment of the scoring. I don't doubt good transitions contribute to other PC scores and vice versa.
What is wrong is awarding high transition scores to a few privileged quad jumping skaters whose programs are rather void of transitions. This, however, seems to be changing a little and we are seeing Joubert trying to add transition to his programs. I think Chan showing quad program with difficult transitions is affecting judges' perception and scoring. As well, the newer younger all around skaters are striving for similar level of complete choreography.
I think, however, some people probably think of Transition as the PCS segment of the scoring. I don't doubt good transitions contribute to other PC scores and vice versa.
What is wrong is awarding high transition scores to a few privileged quad jumping skaters whose programs are rather void of transitions. This, however, seems to be changing a little and we are seeing Joubert trying to add transition to his programs. I think Chan showing quad program with difficult transitions is affecting judges' perception and scoring. As well, the newer younger all around skaters are striving for similar level of complete choreography.
I saw you wrote "rather void" instead of just "void." At first I read it as just saying "void." If a program is "rather void" what would be wrong with judging based on the quality of the transitions the person who did quads did rather than some kind of quantity or even difficulty. The rules say difficulty but they also say variety and you really don't see a lot of variety. It's like when ladies did a catchfoot spiral or something to get a level 4 spiral once you see can get a certain level of transition score based on one thing you just keep doing that! LOL!! It's not like Plushenko didn't do anything between jumps AND spins AND steps! This is what happens when the rules are so vague and the standards are actually unofficial!
Were Hamilton and Bezic and Button saying Plushenko shouldn't have won in 2006? No. Were they saying his skate was a good one to win? No they weren't and it was constant and annoying and I would say that none of them thought he was deserving of gold.
Were Hamilton and Bezic and Button saying Plushenko shouldn't have won in 2006? No. Were they saying his skate was a good one to win? No they weren't and it was constant and annoying and I would say that none of them thought he was deserving of gold.
The arguement of no need for quad jumps because a skater could succeed without it sounds funny to me. If we follow that path of thinking, I could argue that a skater doesn't need transition at all (of course, it's not possible. A skater will have transitions, maybe a low transition score.) if he could make a few successful quad jumps in his program. Why not?
Has there been such arguments, I must have missed them, LOL. My understanding is that quad is a great jump, but there must be lots of other stuff, too in a skating programme and well executed plus a choreography that will give high PCS score.
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I really dont remember Joub's program right now, i remember the conversations though afterwards, but Buttle did a mastery of a program at Worlds 2008 that excused any lack of quad, this is one of my all time fav programs.
once you commented about Arthur the first thing you said is that he needs transitions and another choreographer, not that he needs better sit spin or correction on his flip not to lip.
Choreography and transitions should be rewared with high marks. Theoritically choreography AND transitions should also serve the music, how many skaters do the exact same transitions and choreography elements in their different Lps? What is the point for a catch foot spiral before a jump, when you do this always and it doesnt have to do with the "choreography you claim you have?
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- Aug 18, 2010
Yes. To answer your question, here is the quote:
This is exactly what I mean. Transitions should serve the music and the story lines that a skater skates. A skater should not do transitions for transitions sake. Busy transitions might serve fine in one program. They might not be fit in another program and especially they might not be fit if they are put in between every single element all throughout a program. Sometimes, a single glide on the ice or simpler movements is just what it takes to create a perfect program.
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- Nov 19, 2010
I said "rather void" because a transition between elements can hardly be void. However, a lot of crossovers to build speed or to take up time and space is rather void not just IMO but specifically mentioned by the ISU.
Winning under the COP scoring is about the total points earned, regardless of which elements or components they are from. So there's really no this-vs-that or this-not-that way of winning. Seeing jumps are the highest point getters by far, a winner has to do the maximum number of jumps, the most difficult ones he can, and attain the highest quality in exucation relative to other competitors. There is no way around it. Whenever Chan wins, he has very high TES, usually higher than his PCS. However, in competition at the highest level, no point should be left behind without an attempt to earn it. So transition, along with other components, becomes important too, especially since it, like other program components, is more reliable and stable than technical elements, especially jumps.
Winning under COP means getting every single point you can from every element and component. You may win by maximizing your strengths but it's best to have no weakness and to be strong in every aspect. Quads, are the highest point earners, period. When your competitors have them, you can hardly afford not to. And I mean real competitors, not just great quad jumpers with weaknesses galore, or even with just a single big weakness.
Winning under the COP scoring is about the total points earned, regardless of which elements or components they are from. So there's really no this-vs-that or this-not-that way of winning. Seeing jumps are the highest point getters by far, a winner has to do the maximum number of jumps, the most difficult ones he can, and attain the highest quality in exucation relative to other competitors. There is no way around it. Whenever Chan wins, he has very high TES, usually higher than his PCS. However, in competition at the highest level, no point should be left behind without an attempt to earn it. So transition, along with other components, becomes important too, especially since it, like other program components, is more reliable and stable than technical elements, especially jumps.
Winning under COP means getting every single point you can from every element and component. You may win by maximizing your strengths but it's best to have no weakness and to be strong in every aspect. Quads, are the highest point earners, period. When your competitors have them, you can hardly afford not to. And I mean real competitors, not just great quad jumpers with weaknesses galore, or even with just a single big weakness.
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Yes. To answer your question, here is the quote:
This is exactly what I mean. Transitions should serve the music and the story lines that a skater skates. A skater should not do transitions for transitions sake. Busy transitions might serve fine in one program. They might not be fit in another program and especially they might not be fit if they are put in between every single element all throughout a program. Sometimes, a single glide on the ice or simpler movements is just what it takes to create a perfect program.
Should jumps serve the music?
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- Aug 18, 2010
Good question. However, I think many skaters made jumps serve the music quite well actually. For example, Jeremy Abbott's programs in general. FS is a sport first and for most. So the athletic aspect of it should not be undermined.
One more mention on transitions if you could bear with me.
If a skater uses as many transitions as he/she could, I mean busy transitions, in order to gain transition marks regardless the music, he/she should get high transition marks. But in the meantime, he/she should get low CH and IN marks which I don't think that the judges have clearly done so up to now.
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- Jun 3, 2009
Agreed. The converse should also be true, that if a skater packs their programs to the rafters with jumps to the exclusion of choreography, transitions, etc, they should see those PCS suffer, which I don't think that the judges have clearly done so up to now.
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^^ We agreed at last.
I was looking for something else and saw this and how they endlessly and endlessy talk about transitions like it defined skating-Surprise its from CANADA! LOL - October 2009
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/go-figure/?page=2
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/go-figure/?page=2
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I´m not surprised, in fact I believe each country should pick an element and talk about it all day long, Russians about jumps, Swiss about spins, etc. Let´s see who´s more annoying! I doubt someone can surpass the bais of Canadian/American media. :disagree:
I´ve read this article like 1000000000000 times after the Olys, a lot of Canadian and American posters repeated the same words over and over again on forums, they should have linked the source at least. I´m afraid that to some people talking about FS means quoting the "official propaganda".
Thanks a lot for posting the article, it will be very useful for my PhD thesis.
:agree:
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- Jun 3, 2009
gmyers, fwiw, that's Beverly Smith, who's about "rah-rah Canada" as they get. Now the Canadian media is talking about the quad, of course.
I've gotta say, given what I've read about the Russian media, I don't think we should get into a fight over who's "more biased." Doesn't really serve anything and I don't think you'd win.
I've gotta say, given what I've read about the Russian media, I don't think we should get into a fight over who's "more biased." Doesn't really serve anything and I don't think you'd win.
Unfortunately I don´t speak Russian, a friend of mine helps me with the translations, but if you know a nice piece of Russian bias, please post, it will be as interesting as the Canadian articles!
:agree:
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That is a good question (maybe not as fascinating as the question of which country's biased media is the most biased, but still...
)Certainly when the jumps are timed to the music it can make a routine element into a highlight. I would imagine that a choreographer could begin laying out the program by placing the jumps as the skeleton of the program, then flesh it out from there. (?)
