Why don't these jumps matter?
I've wondered this before and it came up again in the long "flutz" thread.
So why don't triple walleys and triple toe walleys happen - or count for something. It would seem they have the same relation to loops and toe loops as the lutz has to the flip. For a counterclockwise jumper you would take off on a right back inside edge (counter to direction off rotation), rotate three times and land on right back outside edge.
Or this version of a double axel - forward right inside edge, (instead of forward left outside edge), rotate 2.5x, land on right back outside edge.
Is it physics, tradition, the whims of the ISU?
Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way
As far as I know, no one has ever landed a 3 wally, which is probably why the ISU doesn't consider it as it's only done as a double at most. A single wally is a popular transition right now though. I know that the toe wally and toe loop are now counted as the same jump under the current rules, so most people opt for a toe loop because it's easier. A lot of the trick jumps, like one foot axels, inside axels, toeless lutz, one foot sals etc. aren't done because they count the same value as simpler listed jumps so it's not worth the effort or risk to learn or compete them anymore.
Skating is art, if you let it be.
One foot single axels should be worth twice the base value as a regular single axel. That way there would be incentive to do them in combination with 3Sal or 3Flip.
Bona Fide Member
Thanks for starting this thread!
I am sure someone will contribute an expert perspective, but as for toe walleys. they do count for something -- they count as a toe loop.
This is similar to the proposal that is floating about (I read about it first on George Rossano's site, reporting on recommendations by an international coaches organization) to combine the flip and Lutz into one jump. A skater could do two of either or one of each if they wanted to.
I think that the reason the ISU does it this way for the toe walley and toe loop is that no one can actually do a pure triple toe walley anyway -- they always slip back over onto the outside edge at the last moment, even though they are entering the jump as a proper toe walley.
As for the walley jump -- yeah, I think that's physics. You just can't get enough oomph off that awkward inside counter-rotating edge to do more than one rotation.
Bona Fide Member
OK, what about this:
There are five categories of jumps. A skater must do one of each category and no more than two of the same category. Here are the categories (for counterclockwise jumpers.)
I Toe jumps
IA. Right foot take-off
IA1. BOE (toe loop)
IA2. BIE (toe walley)
IB. Left foot takeoff
IB1. BOE (Lutz)
IB2. BIE (flip)
II Edge jumps
IIA. Right foot takeoff
IIA1. BOE (loop)
IIA2. BIE (walley)
IIB. Left foot takeoff
IIB1. BOE (toeless Lutz)
IIB2. BIE (Salchow)
III Forward takeoff. (Axel, any type.)
The beauty of this plan is that it does away with the need for slo-motion replays and You Tube wars over inside and outside edges. The judges individually can give consideration to well-established counter-rotation as one of the bullets for positive GOE. (So for instance if Kevin Reynolds wants to scrap his 4S and go for a quad toeless Lutz instead, go Kevin!)
Edited to add Another simplifying idea. Each of the five jump categories carries the same number of points (count a 2A as a triple for this purpose.) Granted, this means a skater could get as many points for his second double Axel or triple toe as someone else would get for a second triple Lutz, but that wouldn't matter much because in any case five of the seven or eight jumps are specified. The second Lutz, etc., would gain extra points in PCSs if and only if it contributed to the choreography, intepretation, etc. In other words throwing in a spare triple Lutz after you already did your required one would niot be any big deal unless it actually meant something to the program.
At the slightly lower level, if you only have a triple Salchow and triple toe, then you would be required to fill those boxes with doubles or singles.
Last edited by Mathman; 01-20-2011 at 05:38 PM.
Double walleys have been done, at least once. I can't remember who, but I know there was a male skater who did them at some point, several decades ago (when people still did that sort of thing).
Originally Posted by Mathman
No one does real toe walleys anymore. What is commonly referred to as a toe walley (the 3-turn, step back entrance to the toe loop) is really these days just a means of entering a regular toe loop. I've never seen someone do a toe walley in person except for kids struggling to learn a single toe, because real toe walleys are much, much harder.
It's all about making figure skating easier. Some of the standard old tricks do not get any base value. Some tricks have had their definitions revised, for example the toe walley is now a toe loop and a loop jump can land on any edge the skater wants it to, and a Lutz can toeoff any edge the skater wants it to. The minus GoEs start with the Lutz name. I am sure there will be more to come.
I believe the deterioration of the SPORT is to get more students interested in competing which brings in $$$ for so many involved in figure skating: coaches, choreograpers, costume makers, rink rentals, etc., and of course, competitions.
I do not understand why double Walleys do not have the base values that other jumps have. A skater is not compelled to do any jump he/she does not want to, but in CoP without a base value, why should they do a Double Walley or a Double Toe Walle? Of course, the argument is that they can do the Walleys but there will be no credit for them. Isn't that brilliant?
You can't blame other sports enthusiasts for saying Figure Skating is a little girl's sport. But at the same time, there is money to be made by the little girls same as the little girls in those child Pagaents.
Bona Fide Member
Joe, what do you think of my idea in post 5 above. It does away with attaching the Lutz name to a flutz, and it allows a skater to get credit for every kind of jump in a systematic way.
excellent breakdown, but I would add:
Originally Posted by Mathman
a BOE toepic if the air rotations turn to the center of the ice, it is a Lutz and named as such. (counter rotation involved.) If it turns away from center of ice, it is a Toe Loop. normal rotation
a BIE toepic if the air rotations turn to the center of the ice it is a Walley and named as such. counter rotation involved) If it turns away from center of ice, it is a Flip. normal rotation.
as to competitive jumps: I think in musical interests only they make choreography more interesting. The CoP has killed the skater's chance to show off. Unfortunately, the same jump rotating to the left and right will not produce points because it is considered 2 jumps in the scheme of limiting the number of jumps per performance. I insist it is a technical feat.