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Thread: Why don't these jumps matter?

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    Why don't these jumps matter?

    I've wondered this before and it came up again in the long "flutz" thread.

    So why don't triple walleys and triple toe walleys happen - or count for something. It would seem they have the same relation to loops and toe loops as the lutz has to the flip. For a counterclockwise jumper you would take off on a right back inside edge (counter to direction off rotation), rotate three times and land on right back outside edge.

    Or this version of a double axel - forward right inside edge, (instead of forward left outside edge), rotate 2.5x, land on right back outside edge.

    Is it physics, tradition, the whims of the ISU?

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    Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way silver.blades's Avatar
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    As far as I know, no one has ever landed a 3 wally, which is probably why the ISU doesn't consider it as it's only done as a double at most. A single wally is a popular transition right now though. I know that the toe wally and toe loop are now counted as the same jump under the current rules, so most people opt for a toe loop because it's easier. A lot of the trick jumps, like one foot axels, inside axels, toeless lutz, one foot sals etc. aren't done because they count the same value as simpler listed jumps so it's not worth the effort or risk to learn or compete them anymore.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    One foot single axels should be worth twice the base value as a regular single axel. That way there would be incentive to do them in combination with 3Sal or 3Flip.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Thanks for starting this thread!

    I am sure someone will contribute an expert perspective, but as for toe walleys. they do count for something -- they count as a toe loop.

    This is similar to the proposal that is floating about (I read about it first on George Rossano's site, reporting on recommendations by an international coaches organization) to combine the flip and Lutz into one jump. A skater could do two of either or one of each if they wanted to.

    I think that the reason the ISU does it this way for the toe walley and toe loop is that no one can actually do a pure triple toe walley anyway -- they always slip back over onto the outside edge at the last moment, even though they are entering the jump as a proper toe walley.

    As for the walley jump -- yeah, I think that's physics. You just can't get enough oomph off that awkward inside counter-rotating edge to do more than one rotation.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    OK, what about this:

    There are five categories of jumps. A skater must do one of each category and no more than two of the same category. Here are the categories (for counterclockwise jumpers.)

    I Toe jumps

    IA. Right foot take-off

    IA1. BOE (toe loop)
    IA2. BIE (toe walley)

    IB. Left foot takeoff

    IB1. BOE (Lutz)
    IB2. BIE (flip)

    II Edge jumps

    IIA. Right foot takeoff

    IIA1. BOE (loop)
    IIA2. BIE (walley)

    IIB. Left foot takeoff

    IIB1. BOE (toeless Lutz)
    IIB2. BIE (Salchow)

    III Forward takeoff. (Axel, any type.)

    The beauty of this plan is that it does away with the need for slo-motion replays and You Tube wars over inside and outside edges. The judges individually can give consideration to well-established counter-rotation as one of the bullets for positive GOE. (So for instance if Kevin Reynolds wants to scrap his 4S and go for a quad toeless Lutz instead, go Kevin!)

    Edited to add Another simplifying idea. Each of the five jump categories carries the same number of points (count a 2A as a triple for this purpose.) Granted, this means a skater could get as many points for his second double Axel or triple toe as someone else would get for a second triple Lutz, but that wouldn't matter much because in any case five of the seven or eight jumps are specified. The second Lutz, etc., would gain extra points in PCSs if and only if it contributed to the choreography, intepretation, etc. In other words throwing in a spare triple Lutz after you already did your required one would niot be any big deal unless it actually meant something to the program.

    At the slightly lower level, if you only have a triple Salchow and triple toe, then you would be required to fill those boxes with doubles or singles.
    Last edited by Mathman; 01-20-2011 at 05:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    As for the walley jump -- yeah, I think that's physics. You just can't get enough oomph off that awkward inside counter-rotating edge to do more than one rotation.
    Double walleys have been done, at least once. I can't remember who, but I know there was a male skater who did them at some point, several decades ago (when people still did that sort of thing).

    No one does real toe walleys anymore. What is commonly referred to as a toe walley (the 3-turn, step back entrance to the toe loop) is really these days just a means of entering a regular toe loop. I've never seen someone do a toe walley in person except for kids struggling to learn a single toe, because real toe walleys are much, much harder.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    It's all about making figure skating easier. Some of the standard old tricks do not get any base value. Some tricks have had their definitions revised, for example the toe walley is now a toe loop and a loop jump can land on any edge the skater wants it to, and a Lutz can toeoff any edge the skater wants it to. The minus GoEs start with the Lutz name. I am sure there will be more to come.

    I believe the deterioration of the SPORT is to get more students interested in competing which brings in $$$ for so many involved in figure skating: coaches, choreograpers, costume makers, rink rentals, etc., and of course, competitions.

    I do not understand why double Walleys do not have the base values that other jumps have. A skater is not compelled to do any jump he/she does not want to, but in CoP without a base value, why should they do a Double Walley or a Double Toe Walle? Of course, the argument is that they can do the Walleys but there will be no credit for them. Isn't that brilliant?

    You can't blame other sports enthusiasts for saying Figure Skating is a little girl's sport. But at the same time, there is money to be made by the little girls same as the little girls in those child Pagaents.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Joe, what do you think of my idea in post 5 above. It does away with attaching the Lutz name to a flutz, and it allows a skater to get credit for every kind of jump in a systematic way.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Joe, what do you think of my idea in post 5 above. It does away with attaching the Lutz name to a flutz, and it allows a skater to get credit for every kind of jump in a systematic way.
    excellent breakdown, but I would add:

    a BOE toepic if the air rotations turn to the center of the ice, it is a Lutz and named as such. (counter rotation involved.) If it turns away from center of ice, it is a Toe Loop. normal rotation

    a BIE toepic if the air rotations turn to the center of the ice it is a Walley and named as such. counter rotation involved) If it turns away from center of ice, it is a Flip. normal rotation.

    as to competitive jumps: I think in musical interests only they make choreography more interesting. The CoP has killed the skater's chance to show off. Unfortunately, the same jump rotating to the left and right will not produce points because it is considered 2 jumps in the scheme of limiting the number of jumps per performance. I insist it is a technical feat.

  10. #10
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kate View Post
    Double walleys have been done, at least once. I can't remember who, but I know there was a male skater who did them at some point, several decades ago (when people still did that sort of thing).
    Scott Hamilton, IIRC, did them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    a BIE toepic if the air rotations turn to the center of the ice it is a Walley and named as such. counter rotation involved) If it turns away from center of ice, it is a Flip. normal rotation.
    Inside edge, then picking with the non-landing foot would be a toe walley, but a (non-toe) walley is not a toe jump. It is similar to a loop that takes off of an inside edge in that it lands and takes off of the same foot and rotates one full turn, but it requires a completely different technique than a loop jump and feels very different.

    Tonichelle, thanks! Now I'm going to try to find a video of double walleys. I don't think I was thinking of Scott Hamilton, but someone earlier than that (possibly someone not too well-known?) but great to have a name to start trying to find a video.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    oh wait... I read 'toe wally' originally, he did toe wallys, but I don't think he did the ones you're looking for.

  13. #13
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Unfortunately, the same jump rotating to the left and right will not produce points because it is considered 2 jumps in the scheme of limiting the number of jumps per performance. I insist it is a technical feat.
    I think it depends on what you do in between. If you could manage to go right back up into the second jump, with just a step in between, then I think it could count as a sequence and you would get credit for both jumps (at 70% of base value) but only fill one of your allowed jumping passes.(?)

    I believe Sonja Henie could do a single Lutz in both directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ivy View Post
    So why don't triple walleys ... count for something. ...
    Or this version of a double axel - forward right inside edge, (instead of forward left outside edge), rotate 2.5x, land on right back outside edge.

    Is it physics, tradition, the whims of the ISU?
    For those jumps, walley and inside axel, I'd say it's primarily a combination of physics and tradition.

    They can't be done as triple jumps. Only exceptional jumpers can do them as doubles.

    By the 1970s (early for men, late for women), triple jumps were defacto required to win championships and then became required to compete in senior short programs at all.

    So the best jumpers were trying to do all the triples, including triple axels, and quads. And triple-triple combinations. That became the way to show off one's jumping ability.

    The pretty-good jumpers were just training to do all the triples. The so-so jumpers were just trying to be able to land some triples.

    There wasn't a lot of incentive for the best jumpers to train an unusual double jump, or for the OK jumpers to spend training time and performance stamina on unusual singles. So even the singles from these takeoffs remained relatively rare, and doubles practically unheard of.

    Then along came the IJS. Evidently it never occurred to the designers to include these jumps into the Scale of Values. Perhaps they didn't think they were even possible as doubles. And because fairness meant limiting the number of jump slots available in long programs, they didn't want junior and senior skaters to be penalized for doing singles from these takeoffs. So they left them as "nonlisted" jumps that count as transitions, gain no points, and don't waste jump slots.

    That you could call the whim of the ISU officials who designed the new scoring system. But it wasn't a whim to eliminate something that skaters had already been doing. At worst it was a failure to imagine the possibility that some exceptional jumpers in the future could master double jumps from these takeoffs and to build in a reward for doing so.

    Suppose we imagine it. How much do we think double walley or double inside axel should be worth? Maybe we should ask any elite skaters out there whether they've ever tried them and how they think the difficulty compares to the standard double and triple jumps.

    I think both those jumps as doubles should be worth more than double axel, and probably more than triple salchow. But I"m sure there would be room for tinkering with the value once skaters start trying them.

    Then if doubles eventually became . . . well, probably not common, but no longer incredibly rare, then it might be time to start thinking about

    For single jumps, and that includes not only single walley and single inside axel, but also variants of other single jumps from normal takeoffs, such as back inside landings or split, tuck, hitch-kick air positions, what would be the best way to allow skaters to use these jumps as transitional moves without wasting jump slots on single jumps? Allow them to earn more points than the current +3 GOE for single jumps? Allow them not to use up jump slots if they're obviously intentional singles?

    If we want more variety in long programs, there need to be more options in the rules to give incentives to use these jumps.

  15. #15
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kate View Post
    Inside edge, then picking with the non-landing foot would be a toe walley, but a (non-toe) walley is not a toe jump. It is similar to a loop that takes off of an inside edge in that it lands and takes off of the same foot and rotates one full turn, but it requires a completely different technique than a loop jump and feels very different.

    Tonichelle, thanks! Now I'm going to try to find a video of double walleys. I don't think I was thinking of Scott Hamilton, but someone earlier than that (possibly someone not too well-known?) but great to have a name to start trying to find a video.
    Kate - Glad to see someone also interested in the definitions of the technical elements. I was falling asleep when I wrote that bit about about the Toe Walley and The Flip. Sorry about that.

    Also I meant to say consecutive jumps (instead of competitive jumps). 3 Axels in a row executed in a semi-circle at either end of the arena just look so balletic and wonderful, but the Tech score will be only for 1 axel, and I am sure the entire sequence is forgotten in the PC score.

    Oh to bring back the FREE skate and John Curry and let's see some showy skating!!!

    Double Walleys - I'm sure they have been done before. I've seen them on rollers and lugging those heavy skaters around in the air is not easy.

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