Senior Dance Free

herios · Jan 25, 2011

colleen o'neill said:
Anyway, first rant topic : Harvey/Gagnon -Their FD really surprised me.
First off, I have not liked their costumes from the start of the season. I really object to things around the neck. A dancer/skater has to have a lovely long neck to get away with it, otherwise it's at best distracting, at worst ,makes the shoulders look high and the neck non-existant.Tarah has no problem keeping her shoulders down ,so this was not the worst, but it really does nothing for her .The rest of her costume just seemed a mish-mash , and the sound was not so good on most of the clips I'd seen, or the music was unfamiliar...so I couldn't make sense of it all. Then too, as others have pointed out, they didn't skate as well as they can early in the season.. Finally, some commentator (pj ?)said
"depression -era music " and I understood..but the costume is still wrong. She needed a more "Grapes of Wrath"-ish cotton house dress (an artistic version, of course). What she has is more akin to a modern poor girl picking the best bits from the free box, or something..it's just not a good "fit" for the era. He could have done with a fewer patches and still got the message across ,..eh, that's minor detail...But..Ice dance judges have forgiven far worse costumes , so all my objections probably don't count for much with them , so let's set my bug-a-boos aside.

I loved their program and the way they skated it. I know I'll rewatch it to savour some of the lovely bits in their choreography.There was so much to like . I simply adored their strength move, when she lifts him. Oh, I know we've seen this before , but instead of a big "TA-DA !" moment ,he inclines his head and gives this sweet ,coy look to the audience.I laughed out loud. Completely charming and a little bit cheeky after all the fuss that's been made over other couples doing similar moves. I can't understand how this program ( beautifully skated ) did not recieve better marks.

*Intermission*

They have received a level 1 one one of their lifts, that is why. I wish I could watch again their program to figure out what happened there, but there are no youtube links not even for the medal winning FD's, never mind for them.

colleen o'neill · Jan 25, 2011

herios...Yeah, I noticed that in the recap thread. Well, I've rewatched a couple of times,and I can't really see anything wrong. Nothing that sticks out, anyway.

We're sort of in the same boat , I think..been watching 40 yrs ... gone out of the way to try to learn about the sport..but have never skated myself. I know I know quality when I see it , but can't always break down movements to their most basic elements ,and not always totally up on the ever-changing rules..*sigh*

Guess that means I'll have to look at the protocols, rewatch and try to single out the particular lift ..knowing that I may still not be able to see the reason for the level ( and knowing that it may be a poor call ).Has anyone already done that ?( she said , hoping for help..)

At any rate H/G will have funding and some good assignments next year, and they must be pleased with that...I just don't feel comfortable with that 10 point spread. Megan and Aaron have learned to have good poker faces over the years, but you could tell they thought something was wrong, in the kiss and cry, though (unlike some) they'd never make a show of it.

colleen o'neill · Jan 26, 2011

Here I am talking to myself, again...

So. The rotational lift...Well,if this was a court case, and someone asked me to be the judge, I'd have to recuse myself; but as a member of the jury..the case is not made.. If they told me one was a level 4 and one a 3 ( or even a very well executed 2 ), I might buy it. (I don't know all the requirements) But that one should be an 8 point lift with 1.40 GoE ,and the other a 1.5 lift with .50 GoE...( I'd be asking the judge for clarification ) Both are good lifts , both fast..on TV, hard to compare the ice coverage. R/H 's is a one arm lift (but she's holding on)..waist hold. Her change of position is pretty easy (just a change in leg position ), but graceful positions, and there's a reverse rotation.
H/G..No reverse , but a tricky little entrance where she turns her back to him and gives a slight spring .He's holding her leg and she has the opposite arm reaching back to hold his shoulder ..with the other leg bent around his. As they continue to turn ( if anything gaining speed) she turns to face him, they end up in a dance hold with a complete change of leg posion for her ( different leg extended, the other bent to wrap around his leg from the inside )...I don't know if that makes it any easier to picture :laugh:

..The change is quick and very smooth , no awkward transition.

So I don't know any more than I did before , but this little exercise hasn't made me feel any better. That's a 7.4 point difference right there. Add that to the feeling that perhaps H/G should have been closer in the SD. These points may not matter to international judges at GP time, But within Canada people will be pointing to them and saying R/H are clearly better. Just annoys me.

csparkles · Jan 26, 2011

You can't compare those two lifts. R/H did a reverse rotational lift, which is a "long" lift, and allowed to be a maximum of 12 seconds. H/G's lift was a rotational, which is a "short" lift, and can only be held for a maximum of 6 seconds. A level 4 reverse rotational lift has a base value of 8 points, and a rotational lift level 4 has a base value of 4 points. Two completely different categories of lifts. H/G opted for the "4 short lifts" option, and R/H did 2 short and 1 long lift, the other option. In a change of position rotational lift, everything in the position change must be different, so that if you you took a photo, you would see two completely different positions, arms, legs, body, everything. In a change of position rotational lift, you must also have minimum of 5 full rotations if you have a creative or unexpected entry, or 6 rotations if you don't. Very difficult, and very easy for something to go wrong. In R/H's RR lift, they choose the one arm option, wherethe boy must pick the girl up and put her down with both partners only using one arm, and achieve 2 rotations in each direction without any help from the other hand. Again, very difficult, as evidenced by the fact that they were the only team in the event to do one. But not comparable, as they are completely different categories of lifts.

csparkles · Jan 26, 2011

You can't compare those two lifts. R/H did a reverse rotational lift, which is a "long" lift, and allowed to be a maximum of 12 seconds. H/G's lift was a rotational, which is a "short" lift, and can only be held for a maximum of 6 seconds. A level 4 reverse rotational lift has a base value of 8 points, and a rotational lift level 4 has a base value of 4 points. Two completely different categories of lifts. H/G opted for the "4 short lifts" option, and R/H did 2 short and 1 long lift, the other option. In a change of position rotational lift, everything in the position change must be different, so that if you you took a photo, you would see two completely different positions, arms, legs, body, everything. In a change of position rotational lift, you must also have minimum of 5 full rotations if you have a creative or unexpected entry, or 6 rotations if you don't. Very difficult, and very easy for something to go wrong. In R/H's RR lift, they choose the one arm option, wherethe boy must pick the girl up and put her down with both partners only using one arm, and achieve 2 rotations in each direction without any help from the other hand. Again, very difficult, as evidenced by the fact that they were the only team in the event to do one. But not comparable, as they are completely different categories of lifts.

emma · Jan 26, 2011

I just wanted to say that i am enjoying and learning so much form these posts! I haven't yet seen the ice dance (which makes me very sad), but will try to soon. Sounds like a very amazing comp and a very, very deep team!

colleen o'neill · Jan 26, 2011

csparkles..Thank You ! I really appreciate your informative post.

You know , I knew there were such things as short lifts and long lifts, and things that look like lifts ,but might be assisted jumps, ( oh, my!).. :laugh:

...but that completely went out of my head when I was watching and rewatching ( going bleary eyed ). I knew I was looking at two ( to my eyes) very well-done lifts, difficult in different ways, and I even thought to my self, "of course, R/H's lift lasts longer"...and still, my brain didn't connect the dots.

I know something about the mechanics of lifts done on the floor and can appreciate the diffuculty of the added elements such as speed , changing edges , centrifugal force ,that lifts on the ice entail. But thoughtful explanatory posts such as yours ( and others I've elicited here) really enhance my understanding and enjoyment of the sport.

So, leaving comparisons aside, ( trying to cast off the shackles of 6.0 thinking)..I still don't understand the reason why H/G's short lift should be a level 1 here as opposed to the higher level it was given at other competitions. Can you (or anyone ) see an obvious reason , apart from just a different tech caller ? Might it have been short a revolution ?( I wasn't counting ). Otherwise, the lift certainly seemed (to me) to have very adequately filled the other criteria you mentioned.

skatingfan04 · Jan 27, 2011

I was actually a little put off by Kaitlyn's comments as well. While I can understand her frustration, I don't think it helps to be so frank about it to the media. In all honesty, it makes her seem like she's whining. Crone and Poirier, on the other hand, complimented W/P in their interviews. I realize that this is easier for them as champions, but I don't think it would have killed Weaver to show some of the same humility.

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 27, 2011

Eh, If I recall, she laughed at a team that fell at 2007 Nationals (thus allowing W/P the bronze medal). Weaver doesn't seem to have a whole hell of a lot of class.

My fear is if they consistently believe themselves to be robbed, they don't work as hard to improve, and they have a number of areas they improve.

tangos · Jan 27, 2011

skatingfan04 said:
I was actually a little put off by Kaitlyn's comments as well. While I can understand her frustration, I don't think it helps to be so frank about it to the media. In all honesty, it makes her seem like she's whining. Crone and Poirier, on the other hand, complimented W/P in their interviews. I realize that this is easier for them as champions, but I don't think it would have killed Weaver to show some of the same humility.

She is also always whining about how they deserve to win since they have worked so hard and improved so much. Yes, they have improved in the last two seasons, but what were they doing in the two seasons before that, and do they really think no one else is working ----

beabstress · Jan 27, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
Eh, If I recall, she laughed at a team that fell at 2007 Nationals (thus allowing W/P the bronze medal). Weaver doesn't seem to have a whole hell of a lot of class.

You recall absolutely correctly on that. I saw her laugh as well, and it totally turned me off to this team forever. He seems fine and like a very decent, gracious guy; she, on the other hand, has an attitude that is positively repellent. I wish he'd get a new partner because I'd love to root for him! As it stands, though, I hope Paul and Islam pass them permanently--fast--and W/P just reitre and go away.

To broaden this out a little further and include all skaters: don't their coaching teams give them any sort of training in media relations? It seems like it should be common sense to know that you should be gracious in defeat, and that there are certain things you "should" say, whether you feel them or not, just to "play the game," so to speak. But if it's NOT simple common sense, shouldn't someone be looking out for the skaters who say dumb things and act inappropriately? Kaitlyn is not winning fans to herself with her attitude, and I would think her coaches would know that!

L'amour · Jan 27, 2011

Tjis is so rediculous, I wansn't happy with face attitude at this natinals, but now I'm juts...grow up and learn respect people. I hope she take some lesson of how to be classy and respectufull.

callalily · Jan 27, 2011

beabstress said:
To broaden this out a little further and include all skaters: don't their coaching teams give them any sort of training in media relations? It seems like it should be common sense to know that you should be gracious in defeat, and that there are certain things you "should" say, whether you feel them or not, just to "play the game," so to speak. But if it's NOT simple common sense, shouldn't someone be looking out for the skaters who say dumb things and act inappropriately? Kaitlyn is not winning fans to herself with her attitude, and I would think her coaches would know that!

This is an interesting point. In Canada, and probably in North America generally, I think this is what most of us expect of our skaters - to show good sportsmanship, be gracious in defeat, etc.

W&P are coached by two former divas from the pre-COP dance era. SB and AK are wonderful skaters, and they seem to be doing a very good job of improving W&P's skills. However, they competed in an era when the top dancers were not friends, and the "attitude" you carried was a big part of the game. I wonder if they believe in "playing hardball" to a certain extent - just a thought. It rubs me the wrong way too, but maybe would give them an edge. Just musing, here...

beabstress · Jan 27, 2011

callalily said:
W&P are coached by two former divas from the pre-COP dance era. SB and AK are wonderful skaters, and they seem to be doing a very good job of improving W&P's skills. However, they competed in an era when the top dancers were not friends, and the "attitude" you carried was a big part of the game. I wonder if they believe in "playing hardball" to a certain extent - just a thought. It rubs me the wrong way too, but maybe would give them an edge. Just musing, here...

I think that's a great point! I think I'd have much less of a problem with Kaitlyn's attitude if it expressed itself as haughty posture, or intimidating body language on the warmups, or even passion/anger--you know, making the other skaters think, "Don't mess with HER!" But she seems to favor the whiny, "poor me" presentation, and that is just profoundly irritating. And then poor Andrew looks like the guy who has to be the "glue" so that she doesn't fall apart.

Skatie · Jan 27, 2011

pretty sure Skate Canada supplies media training to all National Team members at their camps, so no excuses.

colleen o'neill · Jan 27, 2011

I think we could cut her some slack ... I didn't see all the instances people refer to, but it has to be pretty demoralising to be the 3rd canadian couple by such small margins for two years in a row ( without going any farther back ),witnessing the hype that was lavished on C/P beginning in the pre-season etc. etc.

I certainly prefer when skaters present a sportsman-like attitude , but goodness knows there 've been many occasions in the past when skaters have stepped over the bounds of polite behaviour.

Shae & Vic were pushed at least to the brink in their career, and Marie-France and Patrice stepped over the line( when Shae & Vic kept hanging in and hanging on ) when they said it was unfair that some couples refused to retire and move on, so other skaters could have a chance. ( I think we've forgiven those couples ,now.)

There was a big whiny "poor kids" article about C/P last fall. They said nothing themselves , but their coach drove it home for them. It was not only sympathy grabbing , but completely disingenuous, making the point that they were undermarked at the Olympics , but they had stoically sucked it up and made such progress that they improved their placement by seven places at World's..completely ignoring the fact that seven couples in front of them either retired or split their partnerships. Is this kind of thing any better?

It's PR. Hurt feelings or not , it may serve as a reminder for near-future competitions that they are ,in fact C/P's equals in terms of ability. I think there's maybe less of this kind of thing in the CoP era, but obviously, skaters and their camps can't yet feel it's absolutely unnecessary.

*** Meant to add; in general , it doesn't help that there's no place they can go without the cameras being on them ,esp. in a tight competion , trying to capture their every reaction.

fan1961 · Jan 27, 2011

W/P -

beabstress;544304 He seems fine and like a very decent said:
...positively repellent....well, after all, she is not a home grown Canadian is she, eh!!?

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 27, 2011

colleen o'neill said:
There was a big whiny "poor kids" article about C/P last fall. They said nothing themselves , but their coach drove it home for them. It was not only sympathy grabbing , but completely disingenuous, making the point that they were undermarked at the Olympics , but they had stoically sucked it up and made such progress that they improved their placement by seven places at World's..completely ignoring the fact that seven couples in front of them either retired or split their partnerships. Is this kind of thing any better?

Crone/Porier were behind Cappellini/Lannotte, Samuelson/Bates and Hoffman/Zavosin at the Olympics. They were ahead of them at worlds.

Is it better? Well, yes.

a) It's not them. Crone/Poirier never complained about the placement, their coach did (and if you're doing that, lets not forget that Shae-Lynn complained last season and threatened to go to arbitration over the Nationals decision).

b) It's not an isolated incident. Refusing to go to earlier incidents doesn't mean they didn't happen.

c) It won't serve as a reminder that they are equal in terms of ability. Look at us - none of us are focusing on that. We're focusing on the fact that she's whining about a fair result. Then we're going over past actions and painting a less than flattering picture.

d) They DIDN'T do this last year. That's what's startling. They certainly weren't happy to have lost the Olympic spot, but were relatively 'what can you do about it now?'

e) It doesn't convince them to become better. That's where Bourne/Kraatz went wrong. They focused so much on the controversy and unfair placements that they didn't improve. Lesser teams passed them. If Weaver continually believes that they're being robbed, they won't put the effort in to become that much better (took B/K a good three seasons to regain their mojo after Nagano). So if you think Lane's being disingenuous, remember the fact that Crone/Porier CLEARLY worked hard on improving in all phases of the competition from the Olympics to Worlds, and did improve, regardless of the four or seven.

callalily · Jan 27, 2011

fan1961 said:
W/P -

...positively repellent....well, after all, she is not a home grown Canadian is she, eh!!?

I don't believe her birthplace has anything to do with it whatsoever.

People were very happy that Andrew found a partner who is a good match, and that she was willing to relocate and pursue citizenship. It's tough to find partners, and he deserved a good one (and she is good).

colleen o'neill · Jan 28, 2011

I'm not sticking to the last two years because I don't want to admit past instances happened..I wasn't paying that close attention to things like interviews, etc at the time. Even now, I haven't seen her interview yet ( I watched Bold, but I think I must have it recorded, though I know I didn't get everything on both channels ) Anyway , I'm willing to believe she may have stepped over the line, and if so, I think it's a bad move..

Likewise, I didn't say I think it will serve as good reminder.. but sometimes , some skaters seem to feel that way..sometimes they feel they and/or their coach ( for some reason ) are out of favour with their own federation , therefore, they need to blow their own horn , so they won't be disregarded. ( Whether it works, I don't know.)

I think it's pretty obvious that both W/P and C/P worked hard in the off season.

(Got to walk my dogs..

..I'll be back )

Senior Dance Free

herios

colleen o'neill

colleen o'neill

csparkles

csparkles

emma

colleen o'neill

skatingfan04

ImaginaryPogue

tangos

beabstress

L'amour

callalily

beabstress

Skatie

colleen o'neill

fan1961

ImaginaryPogue

callalily

colleen o'neill

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