The Order of Skate at the US Nats

[Joesitz]

How is it regulated?

I believe it is by straws (lottery) for the SP and then the Reverse Order of the Results for the LP. Is that correct?

Probably why the TV cameras avoid the SP.

[Sylvia]

I believe it is by straws (lottery) for the SP and then the Reverse Order of the Results for the LP. Is that correct?

Yes to the first part and No to the second.

From the USFS Rulebook:

Rule 3322 There will be a random draw for starting order in the first segment of each
event.

Rule 3365
B. TV Rule
1. At the U.S. Figure Skating Championships only, for the
championship (senior) ladies, men's and pair’s free skate, and for
championship (senior) free dance events, the final draw group shall
consist of:
Ladies and men: the last two warm-up groups will consist of not
fewer than 10 and not more than 12 competitors, the exact number
to be decided by the chief referee in consultation with the executive
director prior to the draw of the short program.
a. Starting order for the final two groups will be drawn in four
subgroups.
i. The top three finishers in the short program shall be the last
to skate in the final group and will be drawn from the first
subgroup.
ii. The fourth-, fifth- and sixth-place (or fourth- and fifth- place
if five in group) finishers in the short program will be the
first to skate in the final group, and will draw from this
second subgroup;
iii. The seventh-, eighth- and ninth-place (or sixth-, seventhand
eighth-place if five in group) finishers in the short
program will be the last to skate in the second-to-last group,
and will draw from this third subgroup.
iv. The 10th-, 11th- and 12th-place (or ninth- and 10th-place if
five in group) finishers in the short program will be the first
to skate in the second-to-last group, and will draw from this
fourth subgroup.
Pairs: four couples in the final group;
Dance: five couples in the final group.

[Joesitz]

Thank you Sylvia. I guess I have some calculations to do after the SP. The Order of Skate is important to me.

[SkateFiguring]

My criminal mind just struck me to come up with another good reason to group the top skaters in the final flight(s). While the collisions during practice and warm-up this season were unfortunate accidents detrimental to all involved (maybe except Rippon ), in a mix of skaters of different levels, a non contending low ranked skater might just try to take out a top competitor on purpose for whatever reason!

Knee wacking happened before, just sayin'.

[mskater93]

I used to skate with a girl who (has since quit) was quite in awe her first year at Senior Nationals being in the same warm up group as Michelle Kwan. I think she gawked more than skated.

[gkelly]

My criminal mind just struck me to come up with another good reason to group the top skaters in the final flight(s). While the collisions during practice and warm-up this season were unfortunate accidents detrimental to all involved (maybe except Rippon ), in a mix of skaters of different levels, a non contending low ranked skater might just try to take out a top competitor on purpose for whatever reason!

Well, if there are going to be criminal collisions on practice or warmup, taking out a direct competitor would be a better motivation than taking out someone far above one's own level.

But the problem with that kind of plot is that the culprit would be just as likely to take herself out as well.

Still, if any psychos did barely qualify for nationals, they would still have opportunities to be on the ice with top skaters in the original practice groups or in the random SP groups. And there would always be off-ice opportunities that would be safer for the perpetrator.

Let's just hope no one is so inclined against any of the competitors.

[Mathman]

^ Taking out your competitors would make more sense at Worlds. If you were the third girl from your country who could at most hope to make the LP, you could sacrifice yourself for your teammate who is going for gold!

Of course it wouldn't work for Japan -- all of their skaters are going for the gold.

[gkelly]

So you think Laetitia Hubert's infamous crash with Midori Ito in the SP warmup at 1991 Worlds was really an intentional plot to boost Surya Bonaly's chances?

Darn that Nancy Kerrigan for sneaking in and besting both of them.

[SkateFiguring]

Sheesh........we are talking about ciminal mind and criminal logic, people. No one would take out a competitor because it's too high risk to oneself. But a non-contender with no chance could take out a contender for someone else (no sacrifice if paid) or for spite or whatever twisted criminal reason or motivation.

Off ice opportunities are difficult to engineer and cover up. An on-ice collision is an "accident" possibly hurting the perpetrator just as much or more. A big "oooops". The criminal intent is hard to prove.

Are there really many times when the low and high ranked skaters are on ice together? Other than in their own practice rink, that is. I can think of out-of-retirement Plushenko and S/Z in the Olympics skating in the first SP flight. Not too often does that happen though.

eta I confess I'm just not familiar with the US system. The order of skates for Canadian Nationals is up and it's pretty much in the reverse order of the skaters' previous results and current ranks. Such order is much more TV and viewer friendly so I'm guessing US TV network is probably not too interested in the US Nationals SPs.

[gkelly]

Are there really many times when the low and high ranked skaters are on ice together?

Yes. At Nationals, the initial practice groups are seeded -- i.e., the higher ranked skaters are spread out among the different groups, not clustered all in the same group. The short program draw is random.

At regionals and sectionals, the draws are random. If an international-level skater has to compete there, she or he will be mixed in among the middle- and low-ranked senior skaters.

There are plenty of other times when high and lower-ranked skaters might be on the ice together in an noncompetitive context, e.g., at a club show or larger fundraiser show. There wouldn't be much motivation to take anyone out in those contexts though.

eta I confess I'm just not familiar with the US system. The order of skates for Canadian Nationals is up and it's pretty much in the reverse order of the skaters' previous results and current ranks. Such order is much more TV and viewer friendly so I'm guessing US TV network is probably not too interested in the US Nationals SPs.

Rarely if ever have the Nationals SPs been shown live on TV. Some years they weren't shown at all -- when they were, it was usually a few hours to a few days later, with enough time for the network (usually a cable network) to edit together the programs they wanted to show and leave out everyone who didn't place well, already have a strong fan following, or have a compelling human interest story. Very rare for as many as half of the singles SPs ever to be broadcast.

[mskater93]

US Nationals is a blind draw for SP. I think 2 years ago Flatt skated early. One year, Abbott and Lysacek skated back to back (1&2) in the first flight and their scores held up.

SP is rarely covered live except on IN. They will have highlights later on LP coverage.

[Joesitz]

US Nationals is a blind draw for SP. I think 2 years ago Flatt skated early. One year, Abbott and Lysacek skated back to back (1&2) in the first flight and their scores held up.

SP is rarely covered live except on IN. They will have highlights later on LP coverage.

So one can tell from IN what NBC will show on TV of 2 groups of Ladies in prime time. anything else one would have to get up at the crack of dawn and watch IN. I did that one year LIVE and as difficult it was for me, I thought the poor skaters had to get up even earlier.

Anyone know if NBC will allow UniSport to show this LIVE?

[mskater93]

Anyone know if NBC will allow UniSport to show this LIVE?

Unlikely. They showed it at 2AM or some crazy time in its entirety last year (taped coverage).

[Tammi]

So one can tell from IN what NBC will show on TV of 2 groups of Ladies in prime time. anything else one would have to get up at the crack of dawn and watch IN. I did that one year LIVE and as difficult it was for me, I thought the poor skaters had to get up even earlier.

The ladies free skate begins at 6:45pm on Saturday. You can begin watching the first couple of groups on IceNetwork, then switch to NBC at 9pm when they go live. Only pairs and dance are split into "early groups" for their free programs. Those groups will be on IceNetwork starting at 10:45am and then NBC will pick up coverage starting at 3pm.

This is the television schedule from IceNetwork:
January 29, 2011 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships: Pairs Free Skate, Free Dance (LIVE) NBC 3:00pm - 6:00pm

January 29, 2011 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships: Pairs Free Skate, Free Dance, Ladies Short Program (re-air) Universal Sports 6:00pm - 9:00pm

January 29, 2011 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships: Ladies Free Skate (re-air)
Universal Sports 11:00pm - 1:00am

January 29, 2011 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships Ladies Free Skate (LIVE)
NBC 9:00pm - 11:00pm

January 30, 2011 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships Men's Free Skate (LIVE)
NBC 4:00pm - 6:00pm

January 30, 2011 2011 AT&T U.S. Figure Skating Championships: Men's Free Skate (re-air)
Universal Sports 6:00pm - 8:00pm

February 5, 2011 Smucker's Skating Spectacular NBC 2:30pm - 4:30pm


IceNetwork has also just posted their live online schedule on their website. Unless you live on the west coast, there are no crack of dawn events. Only 5 events begin before noon time, with the earliest being the novice compulsories on Sunday at 10am.

[Joesitz]

I saw that IN listing. It was very good about the entire competition including Novice and Junior events complete, so I'll be busy watching the Nats on computer, as well as the planned Order of Skate by NBC. Hopefully the commentary is kept to a whisper as I get distracted easily.

I just have the feeling that there will be upsets in Ladies and Mens and the Select-for-Worlds Committee will take longer to make their announcements