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Thread: Mens - Long Program

  1. #271
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    As it is now Joubert might not be in the run of the gold, and as things are now nobody but Chan will be if he skates like Nationals, but for me Joubert is not about medals anymore, he has enough to build a house with them, for me his Lp skate is what mattered, the fight , I will never count him out after a bad sp, Joubert silver come back after a not so good season was a triumph. Thats what I love in figure skating.

    I dont want him to win worlds this year cause I prefer him to win them in Nice a la Sara Meirs
    Nothing against Chan and Yuna of course, but that is what I wish for Dai and Mao, Irina worlds 2005 moments!

  2. #272
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    Agreed. If Chan can only win one worlds, it better be in 2013 in London.

    And lets also praise the fact that Joubert won the LP, something he's struggled with.

    Irina in 2005 is my favourite victory, I think,
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 01-30-2011 at 09:47 AM.

  3. #273
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    The big difference between Chan and Amodio? If given the opportunity to see them both off the ice, I'd chose Amodio. There's nothing special to him on the ice that wouldn't be better served off - his jumps notwithstanding. He's entertaining and awesome and feels the music (and I thought this last season with Munich and Amelie, so I'm not a jonny-come-lately here), but I get the feeling that an off-ice Amodio would be better in terms of musicality/interpretation/performance. He doesn't use skating in any particularly unique ways. Chan is the opposte. Nothing he does that he does well can be replicated off the ice. I could just watch him ride the edges. I don't mean to diminish' Amodio's competitive vigour or the sheer showmanship.
    That's an interesting assessment and something I hadn't really considered. I think I agree. Can't say I much enjoy watching Chan, but his talent is certainly very ice-specific whereas Florent is more of a dancer who skates. I'm with you about last year's Amodio programs, they were wonderful.

    Buttercup, I'm not quite sure I agree he's the most musical skater out there. Abbott and Takahashi last season I think were equally musical and more "skating," off the top of my head. Kozuka in the SP last season as well.
    Well, I don't find Takahashi to be naturally musical; there's a quality to it, I don't want to say it's forced but his movement doesn't come across as very natural to me, more like he's actively thinking about it. Jeremy and Kozuka are lovely but not as versatile as Florent, and they lack that extra flair for performing. So I'll stick to my guns on this one.

  4. #274
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    Just watched Joubert's LP and I loved it! I haven't liked a Jobert LP since Matrix but this one is a WINNER. I hope he keeps this program for next season. With more mileage it can become a classic.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    arthur is just 17 in his first senior and he did pretty well, dont recall all your plushenko problems and tranfer them to him, ive him time to find his personal style.
    Then he'd better start getting another coach, right?

  6. #276
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    Gachinksi did fall and single and wobble on some jumps in this compeition. It is not like he was perfect on jumps and didn't medal because judges crushed him on PCS. It is possible that if he was perfect on jumps and didn't medal because of PCS than I think the first thing would be to try new choreo not change coaches. Everyone wants all the skaters who are coached by Mishin to change coaches. Like there is a possibility that the only reason you know their names is because they are coached by Mishin! LOL!!

  7. #277
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    One gets to know a name if he/she skates at big events and places high (or does something extraordinary). He was quite high in the ranks, therefore we talk about him.

    The idea of getting a new coach is because there is no personal style, lots of arm waving and quite good technique. Of cause that does not mean, you can't make mistakes, Gachinski will learn that. But I doubt very much Mishin allows the skaters a personal style or even helps to develop that. I give him the edge in teaching young skaters good technique in the first place (we saw that in Gachinski's sp once again) - but nothing in choreography or style or even polishing the technique. Just my personal opinion.

  8. #278
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    ^^^
    I see Mishin as a Jump coach but he was unable to get the kinks out of Lambiel's 3A. Mishin has never produced any notable Ladies and it took a long while to get Plush to spin properly. Mishin, for me, is not the greatest coach.

  9. #279
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puchi View Post
    Just watched Joubert's LP and I loved it! I haven't liked a Jobert LP since Matrix but this one is a WINNER. I hope he keeps this program for next season. With more mileage it can become a classic.
    Joubert is a Master Competitor. He rose to the occasion at this year's Euros. I believe him to be a moody guy who doesn't always do his best. This new program is very suitable for him.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Joubert is a Master Competitor. He rose to the occasion at this year's Euros. I believe him to be a moody guy who doesn't always do his best. This new program is very suitable for him.
    Yes, our commentators thought that his freeskate programme was great and the music suited him really well. I was happy for him to land onto the podium after the unsuccessful sp. What a competitor!!!

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by artsciboy View Post
    I know Amodio was the clear SP winner - and is a great skater overall - but that LP vehicle of his does him such a great disservice. As someone pointed out, its figure SKATING. Clearly Amodio can dance, but dancing on one spot several times throughout his program does not a skater make. His PCS should have been much lower. Combined with his tech mistakes today - the fall on the loop, edge call on his flip and his repetition of the lutz without doing a combo - he should not have gotten that high a score and won.

    And the Russian politiking is at it again - Gachinski scored way too high for that program (PCS in particular - one Pluschenko was bad enough, but now another...sigh).
    Agreed and the comments of BBC commentators don't help either by stating Amodio being more entertainig than Verner.

    From a North American perspective, Amodio is an impressive show skater, but competitive skating? Well, it's rather underwhelming he is the European Champion. You kind have to weep for the future of this sport in Europe.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdnuva View Post
    One gets to know a name if he/she skates at big events and places high (or does something extraordinary). He was quite high in the ranks, therefore we talk about him.

    The idea of getting a new coach is because there is no personal style, lots of arm waving and quite good technique. Of cause that does not mean, you can't make mistakes, Gachinski will learn that. But I doubt very much Mishin allows the skaters a personal style or even helps to develop that. I give him the edge in teaching young skaters good technique in the first place (we saw that in Gachinski's sp once again) - but nothing in choreography or style or even polishing the technique. Just my personal opinion.
    Well Gachinksi has learned to do the difficult jumps and maybe he would continue to do them well if he left MIshin for a coach who could do better programs as a whole but maybe he wouldn't be so good with the jumps. I really meant that if not for Mishin who says Gachinski could do 3a's and quads? Not all skaters can switch coaches and keep all their jumps. Better to have jumps than good choreo. You want both of course. Yagudin left and went to Tarasova -but he had mich greater success at that point. I know Dmitriev Jr left recently and his work with his new coaches will be shown next sason.

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3T3T View Post
    Dissapointing night of skating overall. Joubert overmarked in the free and way overmarked in the short is pulled up to the podium via very generous PCS. Probably over the both the short and long Amodio was the best but he wasn't at his best tonight and there is a lot of standing on the one spot in the programme. It was close between between KVDP and Verner but Verner deserved it more as even though his jumps were on tonight he had the better all round package. It's nearly as if KVDP only practices jumps his spins and steps are so poor in comparsion. Gachinski over marked especially on PCS, have no idea what the choreography was all about.

    Very disappointing for Brezina but he is coming back from injury. I am getting a bit tired of Fernandez having the same programme time for a change. Would like to have seen Menshovs performance but eurosport were only live for the last two groups.

    I can't see there be any europeans on the podium in Tokyo
    You speak my mind, I concur, though I missed Joubert's skate so can't comment on that.

    KVDP is still using the same methodology as if we are under the 6.0 system and he only did one Quad and one Triple Axel - not much benefit to replace the 2nd Triple Axel with a Quad really, the point differential is not going to carry you over unless everything else is there as well. At this rate, KVDP would not be a serious contender unless he makes some drastic changes to keep up with time.

    Verner always seems to blow it during crunch time after landing the big jumps, then missed the easier ones. He also had a chance to make it to the World podium in 2009 after Chan and Joubert left the door open but failed to take advantage of it. I think for Verner, he has fine overall qualities with no obvious weakness in any particular area so for him, it's mostly mental at this point. He needs to be able to remain composed and hold it together.

    I thought Brezina improved a great deal in his overall skating skills this year including better overall presentation and being smoother in his skating. Last year, I felt he was more or less a jumping bean but despite the mistakes, I am impressed by the refined quality I saw yesterday. Personally, I feel if there is anyone who can compete with the North Americans and Japanese in the years to come, it will be him and no one else because Joubert, Verner and KVDP will retire fairly soon as they have been around for quite some time.

    Fernandez needs to get a new program for sure, it's time for change.

    Gachinski looks like a carbon copy of Plushenko, except the physical difference. It almost seems as though Mishin is good at cloning Plushenko look alike as opposed to cultivate the individuality of his students. See, there is not a single winning formula and I don't know if Mishin believes in that. And I am not sure this is really good for Russian skating in the long run when there doesn't seem to be any alternative or diversity in the way they raise and grow their talents. Can you imagine if Canadian Champions all look like Orser, Browning or Stojko? Each skater is an individual and you need to bring out their individuality and take advantage of their unique strengths. I think Japanese girls today benefit a great deal from watching Midori Ito, hence lots of them doing Triple Axels, but no one has been trying to clone Ito. Even Machiko Yamada doesn't clone her students the way Mishin does. Gachinski is showing very similar strengths and weaknesses as does Plushenko and it's not even funny, hence the "cloning comparison". Then again, if he wish to do well with a panel that doesn't fall under the Russian sphere of influence, he will have to up his game and we know in Worlds and other non-European competitions, you better believe there will be several judges who will hammer him and give him a serious reality check.

  14. #284
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ^^^
    I see Mishin as a Jump coach but he was unable to get the kinks out of Lambiel's 3A. Mishin has never produced any notable Ladies and it took a long while to get Plush to spin properly. Mishin, for me, is not the greatest coach.
    Mishin never really focused much on ladies until recently. He has an extremely talented young Junior skater who took silver recently at the JGPF. She of course has amazing jumping technique.

    Mishin's skill as a jumping coach cannot be denied. Its ridiculous to criticize him for Lambiel's jumping issues. He was never Lambiel's full time coach, or even someone who worked with Lambiel on a weekly basis. Mishin worked with Lambiel at some camps and taught him the quad, but he wasn't there every day or regularly in practice to make sure bad habits weren't being developed. Mishin even begged off on the camps, once Lambiel became a threat to Plushenko. The students who work with Mishin on a regular basis have close to perfect technique. And Lambiel himself felt that Mishin was so helpful to his jumps that he wanted to train with Mishin on a full time basis.

    There are many things that can be said bout Mishin, but the man cannot be criticized as a technical coach. He just needs to let someone else, anyone else package his students.
    Last edited by bekalc; 01-30-2011 at 02:17 PM.

  15. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    The Japanese men rarely seem to all do well at the same time. I kind of think anything could happen.
    Worlds will have 3 very strong Japanese, American and Canadian men. That's 3X3=9 competitors already who are not at the Europeans. Except Canada #3, it would not be easy for any of these Europeans to get through any of the other 8 skaters. So Bronze would be a really uphill battle, not only the Japanese men have to falter badly somehow, which is not very likely, you have to count on the Americans to do poorly as a group and the Canadians to bomb as well. Even if Amodio skates like he did in Bern, I don't think he will make Top 6 in Tokyo and how does he or anyone else get to the podium? I think it's quite unrealistic. Though I'd say Brian Joubert, Tomas Verner and Brezina will have a better potential if they can stay on their feet. I think the last 3 are much more serious competitors and can definitely challenge anyone if they are more or less clean.

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