Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 LastLast
Results 286 to 300 of 305

Thread: Mens - Long Program

  1. #286
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    There are 5 Program Components and they all mean something different.
    All of which require the skater to actually skate, otherwise, you might just bring in ballerina and ask them to dance on ice instead.

  2. #287
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,073
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Gachinski looks like a carbon copy of Plushenko, except the physical difference. It almost seems as though Mishin is good at cloning Plushenko look alike as opposed to cultivate the individuality of his students. See, there is not a single winning formula and I don't know if Mishin believes in that. And I am not sure this is really good for Russian skating in the long run when there doesn't seem to be any alternative or diversity in the way they raise and grow their talents. Can you imagine if Canadian Champions all look like Orser, Browning or Stojko? Each skater is an individual and you need to bring out their individuality and take advantage of their unique strengths. I think Japanese girls today benefit a great deal from watching Midori Ito, hence lots of them doing Triple Axels, but no one has been trying to clone Ito. Even Machiko Yamada doesn't clone her students the way Mishin does. Gachinski is showing very similar strengths and weaknesses as does Plushenko and it's not even funny, hence the "cloning comparison". Then again, if he wish to do well with a panel that doesn't fall under the Russian sphere of influence, he will have to up his game and we know in Worlds and other non-European competitions, you better believe there will be several judges who will hammer him and give him a serious reality check.
    I frankly don't understand the need to clone Plushenko too. And I really don't get it because I don't think Plushenko resembled Urmanov at all... Artur should be encouraged to be the next Artur, not the next Plushenko. Maybe though this will change.
    Well Gachinksi has learned to do the difficult jumps and maybe he would continue to do them well if he left MIshin for a coach who could do better programs as a whole but maybe he wouldn't be so good with the jumps. I really meant that if not for Mishin who says Gachinski could do 3a's and quads? Not all skaters can switch coaches and keep all their jumps. Better to have jumps than good choreo. You want both of course. Yagudin left and went to Tarasova -but he had mich greater success at that point. I know Dmitriev Jr left recently and his work with his new coaches will be shown next sason.
    Mishin isn't the only good jumping coach in Russia. The coach Artur Dmitriev went to could hardly be considered a bad jumping coach herself, seeing as that she developed Denis Ten as a kid, and Denis was known for having very good jumping technique. At the very least, Artur could just train the jumps he always did. That from what I understand is how Yagudin had it, he reportedly kept up all the exercises Mishin taught him etc. Its not like he allowed Tarasova to overhaul his jumping technique. :lol: Good jumps are important but really so is good choregraphy. I especially worry in this regard about young Elizaveta. She is a great young talent and it would be just a crying shame if she gets packaged more and more poorly.

  3. #288
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,275
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Blade of Passion
    There are 5 Program Components and they all mean something different.
    All of which require the skater to actually skate, otherwise, you might just bring in ballerina and ask them to dance on ice instead.


    The Truth.

  4. #289
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    I think it's obvious that Chan is technically superior to Amodio, but to say he is more artistic as well is preposterous. Amodio relates to the audience in a way Chan can only dream of. I'm not saying Chan is expressionless or wooden, because he has his charm, but his skating is much more reserved than Amodio's--he doesn't have the same ability to immerse himself in the character he's playing, or to draw the audience into his performance. And yes, of course this is just my opinion--but it's an opinion more grounded in reality than the claim that Chan is more demosntrative or a better natural entertainer than Amodio.
    Eh...it depends on the music. It's competition vs performing Star on Ice. What Amodio did was pretty much just like performing on Star on Ice or the Gala stuff.

  5. #290
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    I think it's obvious that Chan is technically superior to Amodio, but to say he is more artistic as well is preposterous. Amodio relates to the audience in a way Chan can only dream of. I'm not saying Chan is expressionless or wooden, because he has his charm, but his skating is much more reserved than Amodio's--he doesn't have the same ability to immerse himself in the character he's playing, or to draw the audience into his performance. And yes, of course this is just my opinion--but it's an opinion more grounded in reality than the claim that Chan is more demosntrative or a better natural entertainer than Amodio.
    Sorry, can't let this slide. "Yes, it's just my opinion, but my opinion is more right than yours" is not a brilliant debating tactic.

    That said, yes - Amodio is a more natural entertaining and more demonstrative than Chan. Neither of those translate to more artistic however.

  6. #291
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,579
    Quote Originally Posted by tdnuva View Post
    Then he'd better start getting another coach, right?
    Sure we will send him to Morozov who is packaging his students the best way.:sheesh:

    Mishin never worked with Lambiel apart of some summer camps, where he basically fixed his quad, and you saw the results. In sickness and health Lambiel has it. When he was asked to train him fulltime Mishin was waiting Plush comeback and said no. You can say many things, but Mishin has studied the biomechanics of jumps like none, his books are used in russian universities and are translated in many languages.

    He has made 3 Olympic Champions from scratch instead of taking accomplished skaters he invests on his skaters from young age and that is why he hasnt worked with ladies, he has explained it in many interviews that he cant have many skaters on a top level and he prefers not to train ladies. Yagudin didnt train his teqnique with Tarasova. If you see Plush and Yag jump side by side , they have the same set up, rotation and landing style. SO does Arthur.
    The unrfortunate for Arthur is that he is blonde and trains with Mishin, if he was trained with Tarasova everybody would talk about a new clumpsy skater with future, now he is with Mishin everybody rush to mention the poor packaging, when he is only 17.. Menshov who is not trained by Mishin has more similarities to Plush skating style than Arthur.

    I dont like the programs of Arthur at all. But his Narcissus program was amazing and highlighted his strengths if anyone bothered to see it in juniors.

  7. #292
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,275
    Quote Originally Posted by Holy View Post
    I think it's obvious that Chan is technically superior to Amodio, but to say he is more artistic as well is preposterous. Amodio relates to the audience in a way Chan can only dream of. I'm not saying Chan is expressionless or wooden, because he has his charm, but his skating is much more reserved than Amodio's--he doesn't have the same ability to immerse himself in the character he's playing, or to draw the audience into his performance. And yes, of course this is just my opinion--but it's an opinion more grounded in reality than the claim that Chan is more demosntrative or a better natural entertainer than Amodio.
    I'm glad my preposterousness is supported by judges and those who actually watch him perform. Patrick doesn't need to dream about relating to the audience like Florent. Someone who was there wrote:

    (Re: Patrick Chan's skate leaves spectators speechless) I was incredibly fortunate to have witnessed this performance live last night. It was like nothing I have ever seen in skating. The whole crowd was on their feet well before he was even finished.

    Patrick was magic! I was embarrassed by the tears trickling down my face until I was in the ladies room afterward and realized that I was just one of many who had been crying. Well done Patrick you are truly a Canadian hero!
    Amodio has not accomplished such a feat yet, the enthusiasm for his brand of musicality notwithstanding. I am not saying he's not a good skater but as of now he's not in the league of Chan and several others. Adoration for Amodio or any othe skater should not dismiss the fact that top skaters like Chan and Takahashi are highly respected and much loved in their own countries and more, deservedly.

    BTW, Patrick Chan is younger than Amodio, has progressed and is progressing much faster so lots of luck for Florent to pass him. This applies to many up and comers such as Adam Rippon as well.

    I just noticed your post has been quoted and contested a couple of times before this already. Sorry, I'm not picking on you but yours is a good representation of similar opinions and a good segue for a response.
    Last edited by SkateFiguring; 01-30-2011 at 03:42 PM.

  8. #293
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,579
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Even Machiko Yamada doesn't clone her students the way Mishin does.
    Gachinski is showing very similar strengths and weaknesses as does Plushenko and it's not even funny, hence the "cloning comparison".
    first of all which other students Mishin has cloned according to you apart from Arthur so you can make a statistic generalization?
    Then again, if he wish to do well with a panel that doesn't fall under the Russian sphere of influence, he will have to up his game and we know in Worlds and other non-European competitions, you better believe there will be several judges who will hammer him and give him a serious reality check.
    you see , this is the point an interesting post so far would be not taken seriously and thrown to garbage..
    Arthur has competed to GP this season, Euros and Juniors Gp plus Juniors Worlds the last two seasons, I bet all the panels were under the russian of sphere influence.. Brrr...
    Do you mind also young skaters like Hendrix or Rayan or just Arthur because he is from Russia?

  9. #294
    Rinkside
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Sorry, can't let this slide. "Yes, it's just my opinion, but my opinion is more right than yours" is not a brilliant debating tactic.

    That said, yes - Amodio is a more natural entertaining and more demonstrative than Chan. Neither of those translate to more artistic however.
    It's a good thing that I'm not trying to win a debate here then.

    The issue of artistic vs demonstrative aside, would you really call Chan more artistic than Amodio? Because that's what the conversation was about. I could sort of see your point (if that's indeed the point you're making) if Chan was just as expressive as Amodio in his own, quieter and more nuanced way. But is he? Admittedly, I don't follow his career as closely as most of the Canadian posters here do, but so far I haven't been given cause to think so.


    Quote Originally Posted by SkateFiguring View Post
    I'm glad my preposterousness is supported by judges and those who actually watch him perform. Patrick doesn't need to dream about relating to the audience like Florent. Someone who was there wrote:



    Amodio has not accomplished such a feat yet, the enthusiasm for his brand of musicality notwithstanding. I am not saying he's not a good skater but as of now he's not in the league of Chan and several others. Adoration for Amodio or any othe skater should not dismiss the fact that top skaters like Chan and Takahashi are highly respected and much loved in their own countries and more, deservedly.
    I don't think we're talking about the same thing here, but never mind. Patrick Chan is an amazing skater, perhaps the best in the world, and can of course leave a lasting impression. That doesn't make him able to play a character. His presence is remarkable because he is always himself--which is completely different from the way chameleonic skaters like Amodio, Schultheiss and Lambiel come to inhabit their programs.

    What you seem to take personal offence to is the statement that there's something lowly Amodio is good at that Chan doesn't have. Please realise that Chan cannot be the best at everything, that the two of them are different people, and that you're trying to "prove" Chan's superiority at something he just doesn't do. He's different from Amodio and affects the audience in different ways.

    BTW, Patrick Chan is younger than Amodio, has progressed and is progressing much faster so lots of luck for Florent to pass him. This applies to many up and comers such as Adam Rippon as well.
    This is the sort of pointless defensiveness I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Holy; 01-30-2011 at 04:48 PM.

  10. #295
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,579
    I'm glad my preposterousness is supported by judges and those who actually watch him perform. Patrick doesn't need to dream about relating to the audience like Florent. Someone who was there wrote:

    (Re: Patrick Chan's skate leaves spectators speechless) I was incredibly fortunate to have witnessed this performance live last night. It was like nothing I have ever seen in skating. The whole crowd was on their feet well before he was even finished.

    Patrick was magic! I was embarrassed by the tears trickling down my face until I was in the ladies room afterward and realized that I was just one of many who had been crying. Well done Patrick you are truly a Canadian hero!
    No doubt this happened but judges and the letter can only support an opinion not a fact, I will write you the same letter and change the name of Chan with Stoijko/ Plushenko/ Yagudin/ Lysacek or Daisuke and according to my letter and the judges marks it would be also true. Can you tell me then they are less artistic than Chan?

  11. #296
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    5,275
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    No doubt this happened but judges and the letter can only support an opinion not a fact, I will write you the same letter and change the name of Chan with Stoijko/ Plushenko/ Yagudin/ Lysacek or Daisuke and according to my letter and the judges marks it would be also true. Can you tell me then they are less artistic than Chan?
    Why dismiss and discredit people's real feelings and reactions to a performance? I was responding to the assertion that Patrick could only dream of connecting to the audience and that he didn't have any ability to draw the audience into his performance when in fact he has roused an arena full of people to their feet and moved them to tears. Why do you need to deny this fact? It's not an opinion but a happening shared by thousands present and more via videos.

    I will never dismiss how you feel about your hero. Who am I to deny you're touched if you say you are? What I object to and argue against is definitive statement that an extremely accomplished and well loved skater is devoid of emotion and audience connection in his performance when facts demonstrate the opposite.

    What Patrick has done does not preclude anybody else to relate to and move their audience. Nobody has an exclusive rights on that. Others have done it and some others will do it.

  12. #297
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,579
    Why do you need to deny this fact? It's not an opinion but a happening shared by thousands present and more via videos.
    EEEEK?? I didnt deny Chan(isnt this a strong word?).
    the debate was if Chan or Amodio are more artistic and I just told you that if you depend on audience and judges this can apply to many skaters, even the ones you dont think are artistic enough but someone else does.

    What I object to and argue against is definitive statement that an extremely accomplished and well loved skater is devoid of emotion and audience connection in his performance when facts demonstrate the opposite.
    yeap I agree, and thanx I will keep this for future reference.

  13. #298
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Hollywood, CA
    Posts
    3,900
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Chan can't do what Amodio does. Just as Amodio can't do what Chan does. They both deserve to score higher than each other in different areas. There are 5 Program Components and they all mean something different.
    All of which require the skater to actually skate, otherwise, you might just bring in ballerina and ask them to dance on ice instead.
    Amodio IS skating. See the skates on his feet? A ballerina wouldn't be able to move like that - they aren't trained to dance on ice in skates. If he was just standing around doing nothing that would be one thing but Amodio is creating a narrative and using his whole body. Are you also going to criticize Kurt Browning's Casablanca for the big "posing section" in his program?

  14. #299
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    3,560
    sometimes amodio can make you forget he is wearing skates- and that can be a major compliment to him. Because of the moves he is doing on ice on skates are hard for some to do when they are not on skates. LOL. It is like when Domnina and Shabalin won the compulsary dance at the olympics. That wasn't politics it was because they were so good and easy on their skates that it seemed like were doing a tango on a floor not ice.

  15. #300
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1,780
    I've been a fan of Browning for years and yes , that has always been something I disliked about his Casablanca program.

    About Amodio...Last year was the first time I'd seen him and I was very excited about his emergence. His jumps were good ,he was expressive , musical .. a bit unpolished , but just dripping with potential. I didn't much like his programs . Well, the FP particularly sticks in my mind . I thought it was a bit juvenile , relied too much on his acting ability ,and I'm firmly against face paint, glued on moustaches and such in competition skating ( exhibitions are another matter ). I remember commenting to my sister ( my main watching buddy ) ..What a talent..imagine if he gets some better choreography next year !

    I was upset when I heard he went to Morozov, because I don't like NM's coaching style generally , and although he can have some very nice choreographic flashes , I usually dislike his work. (For many reasons that I won't go into here ,not wanting to take the thread off on another tack.)

    So while I heartily agree with blades as to Florent's talent and abilities , I feel these are being used in the cheapest , easiest way ( which makes me sad to see ).I'm afraid this could mean that we'll just see more of the same in future which will be boring for me and will stunt Florent's development.

Page 20 of 21 FirstFirst ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •