Ladies FS

I'm not always happy about comp results. I have my own unbiased system, and I think her silver at Olys was her best skate. After skating by Sasha and Irina, Shizuka had it easy to skate clean and not attempt any iffy jumps. If Sasha, for once, didn't mess up a competitive routine with falls (which counted a lot in the 6.0 system) she would have won the gold. That's a good example of my point about the Order of Skate as an important consideration in the results.

As for Mirai, it wasn't her best but neither was it Rachael's. I have no strong opinion on that.

Layfan said:

Whatever you say. After placing 4th at her first Olympics, Sasha placed 4th at her first worlds. She never placed lower than that a worlds or an Olympics I hope Mirai has a career as amazing as that. I hope any of the U.S. ladies currently skating live up to that.

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I agree wholeheartedly! I understand that compared to Michelle and Irina, Sasha looked like a headcase. But if you look at her record, it's astonishingly solid and consistent for a good long stretch of time: about 2000 to 2006. She was never lower than fourth, as you point out, and she was on the World podium several times. In addition, despite certain weaknesses, she had a distinctive style and real beauty and authority on the ice. (And if you don't think she was influential out in the world, take a look at some of the one-leg-up-to-the-scalp positions taken by skaters like Asada these days.) The U.S.--indeed all of North America--would be lucky to have such a headcase again, in men's or ladies.

Hello Forum. A little late, but I want to express how happy I am for Alissa. Not only is she a talented skater, she seems like a class act both on and off the ice. Well deserved. Not many people would keep going the way she did after her disasterous Worlds '09 losing the third spot and then her poor '10 season. But she did, and thank goodness! She is someone to root for. Artistic, wonderful spinner, and the jumps are now solid enough. Good luck to her at Worlds!

I am saddened a bit by what is happening with Mirai. I agree with those who feel Frank should NOT be talking about Mirai the way he did to Phil. I understand he is upset with her, and I can see why after her LP problems, but he should remember she is still a teenager. Talk to her in private! She still has some growing up to do. I hope she can fix her nerves and the way she approaches competitions. She shouldn't compare herself to anyone, and that's exactly what she seemed to be doing before she headed out after Alissa's skate.

mirai-scores overblown, her jumps especially her first combo should not have gotten positive pc's scores 0 to negatives
ashley two footed her jumps yet she got positive pcs on her screwups.
rachel postivie on jumps she should have gotten on
it isn't that is mind it is the fact you make sure you catch and dont positive the ones you don't want up there especially chinese.-like zhang, gao.
gao skated yes as good as agnes in short -agnes shouldn't have gotten a 112 a 110 more likely ashley should have got a 106 . her positive on her two-foot, but you only replay christina, carolines,
you didn't replay-agnes, ashley, rachel if you would have -they might have noticed the mistakes, keep up this blantant cheating-the people will keep further , further away.
system been in since 2004 and cheating, blantant overmarking, scoring, skaters you want on top , ethnic divison will drive everyone away. i couldn't watch free skate-based on screw up in short.

also i noticed broadmor skaters get benefit of doubt why-skate better-no overlook mistakes more, frank skaters are getting benefit of doubt-skate better no, just because which is wrong.
subjectivity has giving way to blanant favoritsm and blantant cheating it is making past ogm medal winners, and sport look very bad. like you never once grade fair why you don't know how.

Thanks for joining us, AlexaD. We hope you like it here. Welcome, and..."post often, post long!"

Mathman said:

Thanks for joining us, AlexaD. We hope you like it here. Welcome, and..."post often, post long!"

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Thank you, glad to be here! I've been a skating fan since '97.

pangtongfan said:

Sasha peaked in the weakest quad of women skaters ever from 2003-2006. She faced aging past their prime champions with serious health problems (Slutskaya and Kwan), unproven and erratic youngster (Ando and Kostner), second tier pretenders (Suguri), and one huge surprise (Arakawa). That accounts for her large medal haul which she never would have had with her technical issues in the 2007-2010 quad. Nagasu skated better to come 4th at the Olympics than Sasha probably ever has in her life, Sasha has definitely never done a pair of performances that would have medalled in Vancouver. Yet even in that weak and open quad she failed to win a single major title, and her only U.S title was with Kwan absent. A quad that should have been wide open for her to dominate and win everything in.

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In 2003, Cohen faced a resurgent Kwan. In 2004, Shizuka showed up with triple-triples. In 2005, Irina resurfaced with triple-triples and the Russian federation hellbent on handing her an Olympic gold medal. In 2006, it is true, Sasha faced no real competition at Worlds and blew it. At the Olympics, however, she was up against the current and former World Champions, both of whom had better (or in the case of Irina, more consistent) jumping skills. So I wouldn't say she peaked in the weakest quad or even that she failed in that time period, since she was on the podium more often than not.

I also would dispute that Sasha couldn't have competed in the more recent era. She had a lot of things that were rewarded in COP, like her spins, and falls--her nemesis--are less fatal now than they were under 6.0. I think a top form Sasha would have done very well against Joannie Rochette, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando, etc. So she still would have gotten a big medal haul of the silver and bronze variety, just like she did in the previous four years.

jenaj said:

In 2003, Cohen faced a resurgent Kwan. In 2004, Shizuka showed up with triple-triples. In 2005, Irina resurfaced with triple-triples and the Russian federation hellbent on handing her an Olympic gold medal. In 2006, it is true, Sasha faced no real competition at Worlds and blew it. At the Olympics, however, she was up against the current and former World Champions, both of whom had better (or in the case of Irina, more consistent) jumping skills. So I wouldn't say she peaked in the weakest quad or even that she failed in that time period, since she was on the podium more often than not.

I also would dispute that Sasha couldn't have competed in the more recent era. She had a lot of things that were rewarded in COP, like her spins, and falls--her nemesis--are less fatal now than they were under 6.0. I think a top form Sasha would have done very well against Joannie Rochette, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando, etc. So she still would have gotten a big medal haul of the silver and bronze variety, just like she did in the previous four years.

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Kwan at the 2003 Worlds was beatable. She was great but it wasnt the 1996-2001 Kwan anymore. She had 6 triples, scaled down choreography, no difficult combinations. Sasha with a triple lutz-triple toe planned and Tarasova choreography would have beaten her for sure if she had clean, but of course going clean is a foreign concept for Sasha. Shizuka skated an amazing long program at the 2004 Worlds but she was a nobody at the time (and her short program was mediocre). The judges would have given Sasha the gold had she done something even reasonably good, which of course that night she didnt. Yeah Irina at the 2005 Worlds was unbeatable. 2006 Olympics the way the actual skating went the gold medal was waiting for her and she again blew it.

As for Sasha doing well over the last quad vs those skaters, I have never seen Sasha skate as well in any major event ever as Miki Ando did at the 2007 Worlds or even 2009 Worlds. Miki's jumps alone would have given her the edge on Sasha. Joannie Rochette is alot better than Fumie Suguri, and Sasha all those years had alot of trouble with Suguri and often lost to her in major meets (2002 Worlds, 2003 Worlds, Goodwill Games, 2004 GP final, 2006 Worlds), so Rochette who is much better than Suguri would have been an even tougher opponent for Sasha at her peak in 2009-2010. Mao Asada blew Sasha away in their first meeting when Mao was an underaged 15 year old (2005 Trophee Lalique) so imagine Sasha being competitive with a prime Mao and her peers. Mao the underaged junior was also 5-1 against Sasha, Irina, and Shizuka combined in 05-06 giving indication how the skaters of that quad would compare to the skaters of this. Lets put Sasha's performances from 2003-2006 into 2007-2010 instead:

2003 Worlds- 4th in 03, probably would have been 5th in 07 behind Meissner who atleast skated a clean short with a triple lutz-triple toe (Sasha fell on a triple lutz-double toe attempt in the short). Considering she fell on both a triple toe and a camel spin too in the long I might be being generous but I dont remember Nakano and Meier's too performances too exactly.

2004 Worlds- her 08 long program performance was blah and wasnt smartly loaded with content like Kostner's to compensate the mistakes. Probably 5th behind Nakano.

2005 Worlds- her 09 performances were ok but no triple-triple tries in either program and some small mistakes in both programs. Probably 5th behind Kim, Rochette, Ando, and Asada.

2010 Olympics- of course she won the silver in 06. I am sure we will atleast agree on there isnt a prayer her 06 performances would have won a medal here. 5th behind Nagasu if she is lucky.

In the 07-2010 quad her new nickname would have been Mrs. 5th place.

^ But despite all that, Sasha was pretty good. :yes:

Actually, look at the level she was in '10 at Nationals. missing the OLY team. Would it have been a guarantee (with the increased level of competition in the 07-10 quad vs. the 03-06 quad) that she would have made EVERY SINGLE world team?

If Rachel Flatt or Mirai Nagasu were around in the 03-06 quad they would have been easily been able to snag the 3rd spot behind Kwan and Cohen. The rest of the field was that bleh.

Anyway, this is all coulda-woulda-shoulda-what if stuff. Next!

pangtongfan said:

She (Kwan) was great but it wasnt the 1996-2001 Kwan anymore.

.

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Exactly, which is why she was not beatable by Sasha or anyone. We saw a whole new Michelle in 2003--one who skated with a passion and fire we hadn't seen before. Sasha at her best was not going to beat Michelle on the second mark. And on the first mark, she was equal in the number of jump attempts, but never did a real lutz. Spins were not credited as a technical element under 6.0. So Sasha could not have beaten Michelle in 2003. It is my opinion, however, that at her best, she could have beaten Miki Ando (as she did at the Olympics), Carolina Kostner (ditto), Akiko Suzuki, Joannie Rochette, Laura Lepisto, all the other contenders for silver and bronze in the 07-10 era.

jenaj said:

Exactly, which is why she was not beatable by Sasha or anyone. We saw a whole new Michelle in 2003--one who skated with a passion and fire we hadn't seen before. Sasha at her best was not going to beat Michelle on the second mark. And on the first mark, she was equal in the number of jump attempts, but never did a real lutz. Spins were not credited as a technical element under 6.0. So Sasha could not have beaten Michelle in 2003. It is my opinion, however, that at her best, she could have beaten Miki Ando (as she did at the Olympics), Carolina Kostner (ditto), Akiko Suzuki, Joannie Rochette, Laura Lepisto, all the other contenders for silver and bronze in the 07-10 era.

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LOL are you suggesting Kwan in 2003 was better than the Kwan of before. Please. Maybe she was better than a slumping Kwan of the 01-02 season who went 0-6 vs Irina Slutskaya and came 3rd behind Sarah Hughes twice, and the further injured and aging Kwan in the years to come but definitely not as great as the Kwan of all the many years before that. The Kwan from the 2003 Worlds would have never won the 2000 or 2001 Worlds for example. And IMO Sasha absolutely could have beaten Kwan at any point in the 03-06 quad and would have have if she skated cleanly, except for the fact she is incapable of skating cleanly so it becomes moot. The USFSA was ready to anoint her the U.S #1 every year, and the World judges were likewise ready to anoint her as the World #1 every year (except for 2005) but she fell on her butt each time preventing it. Even people like Dick Button and Peggy Fleming anointed her the clear favorite each time remember.

And Miki Ando from the 2007 Worlds would have beaten Kwan from the 2003 Worlds, especialy under COP. One dimensional jumping bean Elena Sokolova with a triple lutz-triple toe in both programs took judges off Kwan in every round at those Worlds, so Miki Ando with the more difficult triple lutz-triple loop in every round, much more explosive jumps than Sokolova, much better basic skating than Sokolova, and who compared to Sokolova looks like some eternal master of spins and artistry would have had no problem. So your suggestion of Sasha skating cleanly beating Ando at her best and not beating Kwan at 2003 is impossible, since Ando at her best would have beaten Kwan in 2003 herself. Not to mention the fact Sasha never skated cleanly which puts her even further behind any realistic chance of beating Ando at her best.

As I said Sasha with her consistency issues not only always lost to Kwan and Slutskaya (even aging and past their primes) but often lost to someone Fumie Suguri. Miki Ando, Rochette, and even Kostner >>>>> prime Suguri. So Sasha would have lost more often than won against that group. BTW Akiko Suzuki was NEVER a medal contender, good grief she only qualified for one team that whole quad. So yeah sure Sasha could have beaten her, heck Rachael Flatt can beat Suzuki most of the time but that has nothing to do with winning World medals. And as for your Olympics reference didnt even Mira Leung finish above Kostner and Ando at the 2006 Olympics. Forgive me for not being awed Sasha managed to finish above them there.

Mathman said:

^ But despite all that, Sasha was pretty good. :yes:

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Of course she was but it is unfair how many put down the current skaters for not doing as well as Sasha. Sasha herself would not have won as many medals as she did if she were born 4 years earlier and peaked in the era with Slutskaya and Kwan at their peaks (not old ladies with health problems), the uber consistent Hughes, the late blooming and competitive Butyrskaya, Lipinski and Chen for awhile, and others. Nor if she had peaked 4 years later and competed like Nagasu against Kim and Asada (both out of Sasha's league completely), Rochette, Kostner, Ando, and others. It seems some are in denial about it but if Sasha peaked later on her World results while they would still be better, would be closer to someone like Nagasu than what they currently are. Heck Nagasu herself did performances in Vancouver that Sasha has definitely never surpassed in a major event (the short yes, but the long and overall no) and still only came 4th.

wait a min. How did we end up going from talking about the exciting Nats ladies FS to rehashing what could have been with Cohen??

R.D. said:

wait a min. How did we end up going from talking about the exciting Nats ladies FS to rehashing what could have been with Cohen??

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Have no idea, but given the level of thought and time devoted to such irrelevant point, it seems there still are a lot of unsolved business in the internet.

Anyway, regardless of whether you think Wagner is washed up or not- you have to admire her determination and her willingness to be open about her ambitions and goals. She clearly states that she wants to win in Sochi (sure, others do, but few admit it)- but having said all that- with the girls coming up, and her continuation of crashing the short- she's really going to need short of an overhaul to get back in it...and even then, I have a feeling she has already peaked.

pangtongfan said:

Of course [Sasha was a good skater] but it is unfair how many put down the current skaters for not doing as well as Sasha....

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That is an excellent point. In any case, time marches on and so does the sport of figure skating. Yu-na Kim would have totally crushed any champion of the past, but maybe the next whiz kid will be even better.

The thing about Sasha is that people loved certain qualities of her skating whether she won anything or not. Mao Asada is like that, plus she is a two-time world champion.

Of the current U.S. ladies, Alissa Czisny is a lovely vision and Mirai Nagasu is capable of an eye-popping performance. But no current U.S. lady has yet has grabbed a fan base like Sasha (and of course Michelle).

pangtongfan said:

LOL are you suggesting Kwan in 2003 was better than the Kwan of before. :

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Tired of this silly argument. You're entitled to your opinion. Let me just say, that Kwan was unbeatable in the 02-03 season and in fact, went undefeated. Does that make her better than before? Maybe not, but Kwan in 2003 is still better than all but the very best skaters at the top of their form.

R.D. said:

wait a min. How did we end up going from talking about the exciting Nats ladies FS to rehashing what could have been with Cohen??

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Good question. Won't discuss it anymore.