Ladies FS

[Mrs. P]

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...-makes-it.html

The funny thing is how quickly Hersh turned on his own favorite (Mirai) after one bad skate. All last year he was on a Rachael-bashing rampage, using Mirai as his cudgel.

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Everyone has dealt with the wrath of Phil. The only one that hasn't, at least from what I read last year, was Sasha. His eagerness for her comeback was just a bit much at times.

He totally cut her some slack when she finished fourth after that lackluster FS.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...r-spokane.html

[Mathman]

^ Hersh was invested in Sasha's comeback. Hersh got a couple of scoops early in the year from Sasha herself and he was the first to publish a big story about it.

When everyone else said, yeah, sure, Sasha's coming back, right, Hersh was kind of out on a limb. Then when Sasha really did come back, Hersh was a news-hound hero in his own mind for being right!

[Mrs. P]

^ Hersh was invested in Sasha's comeback. Hersh got a couple of scoops early in the year from Sasha herself and he was the first to publish a big story about it.

When everyone else said, yeah, sure, Sasha's coming back, right, Hersh was kind of out on a limb. Then when Sasha really did come back, Hersh was a news-hound hero in his own mind for being right!

But you do see the irony of Sasha's fourth place being "well-deserved" and Mirai's bronze being an indication of being "undisciplined?"

[Layfan]

My general principle is that adults should always think very carefully before publicly castigating a youngster. The adult, especially a parent or someone in authority, has an unfair advantage. Carroll could have kept things to himself.

By the way, I haven't looked back to see if anyone but me mentioned Bowman on this thread, but I'll address what I said. I apologize to all and sundry, including Mirai, if anyone inferred that I was comparing Mirai to Bowman. Perish the thought! I was just running through my mind the list of hugely talented skaters who didn't seem to be able to harness the talent. And since Bowman was coincidentally a student of Carroll's, he came to mind. But remember, when he was actually skating with Carroll, he hadn't plunged to the bottom of the pit. He was a young boy with giant but undisciplined talent. That is the stage of his life I was thinking of when I made my comment. Nonetheless, if I caused any offense, I apologize.

Oh Olympia, no. I didn't even know that you had mentioned Bowman. I was responding to fairly 4. Actually, now I remember that you did make that list but I was responding to someone else's comment that Mirai reminded them of Christopher Bowman. The way you said it was totally different.

[Layfan]

Sasha peaked in the weakest quad of women skaters ever from 2003-2006. She faced aging past their prime champions with serious health problems (Slutskaya and Kwan), unproven and erratic youngster (Ando and Kostner), second tier pretenders (Suguri), and one huge surprise (Arakawa). That accounts for her large medal haul which she never would have had with her technical issues in the 2007-2010 quad. Nagasu skated better to come 4th at the Olympics than Sasha probably ever has in her life, Sasha has definitely never done a pair of performances that would have medalled in Vancouver. Yet even in that weak and open quad she failed to win a single major title, and her only U.S title was with Kwan absent. A quad that should have been wide open for her to dominate and win everything in.

Whatever you say. After placing 4th at her first Olympics, Sasha placed 4th at her first worlds. She never placed lower than that a worlds or an Olympics I hope Mirai has a career as amazing as that. I hope any of the U.S. ladies currently skating live up to that.

[Joesitz]

I'm not always happy about comp results. I have my own unbiased system, and I think her silver at Olys was her best skate. After skating by Sasha and Irina, Shizuka had it easy to skate clean and not attempt any iffy jumps. If Sasha, for once, didn't mess up a competitive routine with falls (which counted a lot in the 6.0 system) she would have won the gold. That's a good example of my point about the Order of Skate as an important consideration in the results.

As for Mirai, it wasn't her best but neither was it Rachael's. I have no strong opinion on that.

[Olympia]

Whatever you say. After placing 4th at her first Olympics, Sasha placed 4th at her first worlds. She never placed lower than that a worlds or an Olympics I hope Mirai has a career as amazing as that. I hope any of the U.S. ladies currently skating live up to that.

I agree wholeheartedly! I understand that compared to Michelle and Irina, Sasha looked like a headcase. But if you look at her record, it's astonishingly solid and consistent for a good long stretch of time: about 2000 to 2006. She was never lower than fourth, as you point out, and she was on the World podium several times. In addition, despite certain weaknesses, she had a distinctive style and real beauty and authority on the ice. (And if you don't think she was influential out in the world, take a look at some of the one-leg-up-to-the-scalp positions taken by skaters like Asada these days.) The U.S.--indeed all of North America--would be lucky to have such a headcase again, in men's or ladies.

[AlexaD]

Hello Forum. A little late, but I want to express how happy I am for Alissa. Not only is she a talented skater, she seems like a class act both on and off the ice. Well deserved. Not many people would keep going the way she did after her disasterous Worlds '09 losing the third spot and then her poor '10 season. But she did, and thank goodness! She is someone to root for. Artistic, wonderful spinner, and the jumps are now solid enough. Good luck to her at Worlds!

I am saddened a bit by what is happening with Mirai. I agree with those who feel Frank should NOT be talking about Mirai the way he did to Phil. I understand he is upset with her, and I can see why after her LP problems, but he should remember she is still a teenager. Talk to her in private! She still has some growing up to do. I hope she can fix her nerves and the way she approaches competitions. She shouldn't compare herself to anyone, and that's exactly what she seemed to be doing before she headed out after Alissa's skate.

[fairly4]

mirai-scores overblown, her jumps especially her first combo should not have gotten positive pc's scores 0 to negatives
ashley two footed her jumps yet she got positive pcs on her screwups.
rachel postivie on jumps she should have gotten on
it isn't that is mind it is the fact you make sure you catch and dont positive the ones you don't want up there especially chinese.-like zhang, gao.
gao skated yes as good as agnes in short -agnes shouldn't have gotten a 112 a 110 more likely ashley should have got a 106 . her positive on her two-foot, but you only replay christina, carolines,
you didn't replay-agnes, ashley, rachel if you would have -they might have noticed the mistakes, keep up this blantant cheating-the people will keep further , further away.
system been in since 2004 and cheating, blantant overmarking, scoring, skaters you want on top , ethnic divison will drive everyone away. i couldn't watch free skate-based on screw up in short.

[fairly4]

also i noticed broadmor skaters get benefit of doubt why-skate better-no overlook mistakes more, frank skaters are getting benefit of doubt-skate better no, just because which is wrong.
subjectivity has giving way to blanant favoritsm and blantant cheating it is making past ogm medal winners, and sport look very bad. like you never once grade fair why you don't know how.

[Mathman]

Thanks for joining us, AlexaD. We hope you like it here. Welcome, and..."post often, post long!"

[AlexaD]

Thanks for joining us, AlexaD. We hope you like it here. Welcome, and..."post often, post long!"

Thank you, glad to be here! I've been a skating fan since '97.

[jenaj]

Sasha peaked in the weakest quad of women skaters ever from 2003-2006. She faced aging past their prime champions with serious health problems (Slutskaya and Kwan), unproven and erratic youngster (Ando and Kostner), second tier pretenders (Suguri), and one huge surprise (Arakawa). That accounts for her large medal haul which she never would have had with her technical issues in the 2007-2010 quad. Nagasu skated better to come 4th at the Olympics than Sasha probably ever has in her life, Sasha has definitely never done a pair of performances that would have medalled in Vancouver. Yet even in that weak and open quad she failed to win a single major title, and her only U.S title was with Kwan absent. A quad that should have been wide open for her to dominate and win everything in.

In 2003, Cohen faced a resurgent Kwan. In 2004, Shizuka showed up with triple-triples. In 2005, Irina resurfaced with triple-triples and the Russian federation hellbent on handing her an Olympic gold medal. In 2006, it is true, Sasha faced no real competition at Worlds and blew it. At the Olympics, however, she was up against the current and former World Champions, both of whom had better (or in the case of Irina, more consistent) jumping skills. So I wouldn't say she peaked in the weakest quad or even that she failed in that time period, since she was on the podium more often than not.

I also would dispute that Sasha couldn't have competed in the more recent era. She had a lot of things that were rewarded in COP, like her spins, and falls--her nemesis--are less fatal now than they were under 6.0. I think a top form Sasha would have done very well against Joannie Rochette, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando, etc. So she still would have gotten a big medal haul of the silver and bronze variety, just like she did in the previous four years.

[pangtongfan]

In 2003, Cohen faced a resurgent Kwan. In 2004, Shizuka showed up with triple-triples. In 2005, Irina resurfaced with triple-triples and the Russian federation hellbent on handing her an Olympic gold medal. In 2006, it is true, Sasha faced no real competition at Worlds and blew it. At the Olympics, however, she was up against the current and former World Champions, both of whom had better (or in the case of Irina, more consistent) jumping skills. So I wouldn't say she peaked in the weakest quad or even that she failed in that time period, since she was on the podium more often than not.

I also would dispute that Sasha couldn't have competed in the more recent era. She had a lot of things that were rewarded in COP, like her spins, and falls--her nemesis--are less fatal now than they were under 6.0. I think a top form Sasha would have done very well against Joannie Rochette, Carolina Kostner, Miki Ando, etc. So she still would have gotten a big medal haul of the silver and bronze variety, just like she did in the previous four years.

Kwan at the 2003 Worlds was beatable. She was great but it wasnt the 1996-2001 Kwan anymore. She had 6 triples, scaled down choreography, no difficult combinations. Sasha with a triple lutz-triple toe planned and Tarasova choreography would have beaten her for sure if she had clean, but of course going clean is a foreign concept for Sasha. Shizuka skated an amazing long program at the 2004 Worlds but she was a nobody at the time (and her short program was mediocre). The judges would have given Sasha the gold had she done something even reasonably good, which of course that night she didnt. Yeah Irina at the 2005 Worlds was unbeatable. 2006 Olympics the way the actual skating went the gold medal was waiting for her and she again blew it.

As for Sasha doing well over the last quad vs those skaters, I have never seen Sasha skate as well in any major event ever as Miki Ando did at the 2007 Worlds or even 2009 Worlds. Miki's jumps alone would have given her the edge on Sasha. Joannie Rochette is alot better than Fumie Suguri, and Sasha all those years had alot of trouble with Suguri and often lost to her in major meets (2002 Worlds, 2003 Worlds, Goodwill Games, 2004 GP final, 2006 Worlds), so Rochette who is much better than Suguri would have been an even tougher opponent for Sasha at her peak in 2009-2010. Mao Asada blew Sasha away in their first meeting when Mao was an underaged 15 year old (2005 Trophee Lalique) so imagine Sasha being competitive with a prime Mao and her peers. Mao the underaged junior was also 5-1 against Sasha, Irina, and Shizuka combined in 05-06 giving indication how the skaters of that quad would compare to the skaters of this. Lets put Sasha's performances from 2003-2006 into 2007-2010 instead:

2003 Worlds- 4th in 03, probably would have been 5th in 07 behind Meissner who atleast skated a clean short with a triple lutz-triple toe (Sasha fell on a triple lutz-double toe attempt in the short). Considering she fell on both a triple toe and a camel spin too in the long I might be being generous but I dont remember Nakano and Meier's too performances too exactly.

2004 Worlds- her 08 long program performance was blah and wasnt smartly loaded with content like Kostner's to compensate the mistakes. Probably 5th behind Nakano.

2005 Worlds- her 09 performances were ok but no triple-triple tries in either program and some small mistakes in both programs. Probably 5th behind Kim, Rochette, Ando, and Asada.

2010 Olympics- of course she won the silver in 06. I am sure we will atleast agree on there isnt a prayer her 06 performances would have won a medal here. 5th behind Nagasu if she is lucky.

In the 07-2010 quad her new nickname would have been Mrs. 5th place.

[Mathman]

^ But despite all that, Sasha was pretty good.