Actually, look at the level she was in '10 at Nationals. missing the OLY team. Would it have been a guarantee (with the increased level of competition in the 07-10 quad vs. the 03-06 quad) that she would have made EVERY SINGLE world team?
If Rachel Flatt or Mirai Nagasu were around in the 03-06 quad they would have been easily been able to snag the 3rd spot behind Kwan and Cohen. The rest of the field was that bleh.
Anyway, this is all coulda-woulda-shoulda-what if stuff. Next!
Exactly, which is why she was not beatable by Sasha or anyone. We saw a whole new Michelle in 2003--one who skated with a passion and fire we hadn't seen before. Sasha at her best was not going to beat Michelle on the second mark. And on the first mark, she was equal in the number of jump attempts, but never did a real lutz. Spins were not credited as a technical element under 6.0. So Sasha could not have beaten Michelle in 2003. It is my opinion, however, that at her best, she could have beaten Miki Ando (as she did at the Olympics), Carolina Kostner (ditto), Akiko Suzuki, Joannie Rochette, Laura Lepisto, all the other contenders for silver and bronze in the 07-10 era.Originally Posted by pangtongfan
LOL are you suggesting Kwan in 2003 was better than the Kwan of before.Please. Maybe she was better than a slumping Kwan of the 01-02 season who went 0-6 vs Irina Slutskaya and came 3rd behind Sarah Hughes twice, and the further injured and aging Kwan in the years to come but definitely not as great as the Kwan of all the many years before that. The Kwan from the 2003 Worlds would have never won the 2000 or 2001 Worlds for example. And IMO Sasha absolutely could have beaten Kwan at any point in the 03-06 quad and would have have if she skated cleanly, except for the fact she is incapable of skating cleanly so it becomes moot. The USFSA was ready to anoint her the U.S #1 every year, and the World judges were likewise ready to anoint her as the World #1 every year (except for 2005) but she fell on her butt each time preventing it. Even people like Dick Button and Peggy Fleming anointed her the clear favorite each time remember.
And Miki Ando from the 2007 Worlds would have beaten Kwan from the 2003 Worlds, especialy under COP. One dimensional jumping bean Elena Sokolova with a triple lutz-triple toe in both programs took judges off Kwan in every round at those Worlds, so Miki Ando with the more difficult triple lutz-triple loop in every round, much more explosive jumps than Sokolova, much better basic skating than Sokolova, and who compared to Sokolova looks like some eternal master of spins and artistry would have had no problem. So your suggestion of Sasha skating cleanly beating Ando at her best and not beating Kwan at 2003 is impossible, since Ando at her best would have beaten Kwan in 2003 herself. Not to mention the fact Sasha never skated cleanly which puts her even further behind any realistic chance of beating Ando at her best.
As I said Sasha with her consistency issues not only always lost to Kwan and Slutskaya (even aging and past their primes) but often lost to someone Fumie Suguri. Miki Ando, Rochette, and even Kostner >>>>> prime Suguri. So Sasha would have lost more often than won against that group. BTW Akiko Suzuki was NEVER a medal contender, good grief she only qualified for one team that whole quad. So yeah sure Sasha could have beaten her, heck Rachael Flatt can beat Suzuki most of the time but that has nothing to do with winning World medals. And as for your Olympics reference didnt even Mira Leung finish above Kostner and Ando at the 2006 Olympics. Forgive me for not being awed Sasha managed to finish above them there.
Last edited by pangtongfan; 02-03-2011 at 09:26 PM.
Of course she was but it is unfair how many put down the current skaters for not doing as well as Sasha. Sasha herself would not have won as many medals as she did if she were born 4 years earlier and peaked in the era with Slutskaya and Kwan at their peaks (not old ladies with health problems), the uber consistent Hughes, the late blooming and competitive Butyrskaya, Lipinski and Chen for awhile, and others. Nor if she had peaked 4 years later and competed like Nagasu against Kim and Asada (both out of Sasha's league completely), Rochette, Kostner, Ando, and others. It seems some are in denial about it but if Sasha peaked later on her World results while they would still be better, would be closer to someone like Nagasu than what they currently are. Heck Nagasu herself did performances in Vancouver that Sasha has definitely never surpassed in a major event (the short yes, but the long and overall no) and still only came 4th.^ But despite all that, Sasha was pretty good.
wait a min. How did we end up going from talking about the exciting Nats ladies FS to rehashing what could have been with Cohen??
Have no idea, but given the level of thought and time devoted to such irrelevant point, it seems there still are a lot of unsolved business in the internet.wait a min. How did we end up going from talking about the exciting Nats ladies FS to rehashing what could have been with Cohen??
Anyway, regardless of whether you think Wagner is washed up or not- you have to admire her determination and her willingness to be open about her ambitions and goals. She clearly states that she wants to win in Sochi (sure, others do, but few admit it)- but having said all that- with the girls coming up, and her continuation of crashing the short- she's really going to need short of an overhaul to get back in it...and even then, I have a feeling she has already peaked.
That is an excellent point. In any case, time marches on and so does the sport of figure skating. Yu-na Kim would have totally crushed any champion of the past, but maybe the next whiz kid will be even better.
The thing about Sasha is that people loved certain qualities of her skating whether she won anything or not. Mao Asada is like that, plus she is a two-time world champion.
Of the current U.S. ladies, Alissa Czisny is a lovely vision and Mirai Nagasu is capable of an eye-popping performance. But no current U.S. lady has yet has grabbed a fan base like Sasha (and of course Michelle).
Tired of this silly argument. You're entitled to your opinion. Let me just say, that Kwan was unbeatable in the 02-03 season and in fact, went undefeated. Does that make her better than before? Maybe not, but Kwan in 2003 is still better than all but the very best skaters at the top of their form.LOL are you suggesting Kwan in 2003 was better than the Kwan of before.
Good question. Won't discuss it anymore.wait a min. How did we end up going from talking about the exciting Nats ladies FS to rehashing what could have been with Cohen??
Yeah a past her prime Kwan went undefeated for the first time ever which she couldnt even do in past years when she was much better. Thanks for proving my point further about the 03-06 quad that Cohen was fortunate to peak in.
OK, you're right on both accounts. Move on now.
I think that's what the Internet is for. Where else can we fans go to find people equally interested in our obsessions about why Michelle didn't win gold in 1998, or whether Sasha should have stayed in skating? I mean, we also come up with rational, sensible ideas, but we have to get the OCD aspect of our devotions out of our systems, don't we? I try to be cool about things, but from time to time the "wuzrobbed" part of my brain takes over, and I'm good to go for a few pages of posts. I'm sure I'm not the only one!Have no idea, but given the level of thought and time devoted to such irrelevant point, it seems there still are a lot of unsolved business in the internet.
Nobody who's here is totally calm and collected all the time. Otherwise we'd be on a chess forum.
Last edited by Olympia; 02-05-2011 at 12:39 AM.
My only point is when evaluating results one must consider the quality of competition as well. It is silly to overlook this factor. I only brought it up since others are totally ignoring that a a factor in results which is clearly silly. Nagasu gave performances at the 2010 Olympics for instance that with fair judging would have won many Olympics, that should have easily won the 2006 Olympics (over a 5 triple only Shizuka) which Sasha was a distant and narrow silver (and some thought wuzgifted) at.
Why does hardly anyone consider Sonja Henjie the greatest ever? After all her record is far beyond anyone elses. Obvious reason is she competed when figure skating was just starting out as a serious sport and she had much weaker competition than future skaters.
You cant fault Nagasu and Flatt for who they have to compete against. They compete against a prime Kim and Asada which is incredibly tough, way tougher than a past their primes Kwan and Slutskaya, or even a prime Arakawa. And beyond that they compete against Ando, Kostner, and Rochette which is far tougher than Suguri, Sokolova, and Meissner.
Last edited by pangtongfan; 02-05-2011 at 06:10 AM.
On at least part of that I can definitely agree with you, PangTong. To compete against Kim and Asada must be like competing against people who have magical powers. It's like the problems faced by American ice dancers and pairs skaters in the days when Soviets had a virtual lock on the best training and most innovative programs in the world. When you think about it, even Asada must feel she's facing a buzz saw sometimes when she competes against the equally prodigiously gifted Kim. Can you imagine executing three double axels at the Olympics and not being good enough to win the gold? So times are definitely tough for ladies singles skaters. Great new for fans; truly grueling for skaters.
But a lot of the ways Nagasu and Flatt fall short aren't because their best is not good enough. (The 2010 Olympics being a glorious exception.) It's when they goof up that they slide out of competition. After all, Rochette pulled herself up to a medal, and she was not in contention at all during many recent years. It's certainly possible that at least Mirai could podium in such a field, if she skates what she's capable of.
As for Sonja Henie: when I read of her record, I was very excited to see her. But I found her skating disappointing to my post-Peggy Fleming eyes, as I'm sure you did. She had no extensions as she did spirals; she didn't hold any moves. Her back hunched as she moved. The lines that we value just weren't the style of the day. People hadn't figured out the potential of skating yet. Moreover, it truly was figure skating in those days: you won on the strength of your school figures. The person who began the change to more athletic skating was Henie herself, but she certainly couldn't have envisioned either the athletic likes of Dorothy Hamill or the graceful musicality of Janet Lynn.
Last edited by Olympia; 02-05-2011 at 08:05 AM.
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