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Thread: US Selections for Junior Worlds

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    US Selections for Junior Worlds

    US Figure Skating has been tweeting it's picks for Junior Worlds a frustating bit at a time:

    http://twitter.com/USFigureSkating

    Ladies: Agnes Zawadzki, Courtney Hicks, Christina Gao
    Alternates: Lam, Siraj, Gong

    Men: Will be listed after the Senior Men's Final today

    Dance: Charlotte Lichtman & Dean Copley, Lauri Bonacorsi & Travis Mager, Anastasia Cannuscio & Colin McManus,
    Alternates: Olson & Cowan and Yang & Baker

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    Men have just been added.

    Men on U.S. World Junior Team are Max Aaron, Jason Brown, Keegan Messing..

    .alternates are Alex Zahradnicek, Steven Evans, Philip Warren

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nadster View Post
    Men have just been added.

    Men on U.S. World Junior Team are Max Aaron, Jason Brown, Keegan Messing..

    .alternates are Alex Zahradnicek, Steven Evans, Philip Warren
    This is so unfair to Zahradnicek who earned his way to be on the Team as a full member yet he gets pushed aside to make room for the ageless seniors. The USFS should straighten this out to rule once a skater of less than so many years can opt to be a Junior or a Senior but not Both. How many European skaters skate both Seniors and Juniors?

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Brown is 16. So I don't think he qualifies as a "ageless senior". The perhaps unwritten rule appears to be that if you won juniors at Nationals & are age eligible, you move up to Seniors the next year. He did. So the question is, was his performance at seniors good enough to place him over Zahradnicek? And it was.

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    I'm not that familiar with Juniors, but am surprised that it's not like seniors when it comes to the selection process.

    Imho the most fair decision would be to send those that placed 1, 2, 3 or 1, 2 depending on how many spots were earned the previous year. Anything else reeks of politics, favoritism, et al.

    And I don't care how good somebody is, if they didn't earn their spot on the team, sorry, come back again next year. Thank God seniors plays fair 99% of the time (e.g. this year's Nationals).

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    Joesitz, a number of European skaters have done both junior and seniors. Alena Leonova won junior worlds, came top five at senior Europeans, top ten at Worlds. Denis Ten of Kazakhstan went to both junior and senior worlds, along with 4CC n 2009. Michal Brezina went to Euros for two seasons while still competing on the junior circuit. Ira Vannut of Belgium was at Europeans this season while still competing on the junior circuit.

    The distinction between junior and senior internationally is different than it is in most countries. Nationally, its about skill level (if you pass such-and-such test, you're considered a senior). Internationally, it's strictly a designation of age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Brown is 16. So I don't think he qualifies as a "ageless senior". The perhaps unwritten rule appears to be that if you won juniors at Nationals & are age eligible, you move up to Seniors the next year. He did. So the question is, was his performance at seniors good enough to place him over Zahradnicek? And it was.
    I was not bringing up the case for Brown. i was speaking of the system. USFS says Brown is eligible to skate Seniors and ISU says he is ok to skate Juniors. He didn't do both. He only skated Seniors and now he will skate Junior Worlds. It's all perfectly legal, but I believe the Senior system for Americans is to place at senior Nats, and if podiumed that is reason enough to skate Worlds. Brown didn't place at Junior Nats, and I felt it was only his age was considered plus the ok by the special committee would allow him to skate junior worlds.

    This didn't happen for Abbott. What if he didn't skate Worlds? I just think there should be a meeting of the minds on what exactly constitutes a Junior in the USFS.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Joesitz, a number of European skaters have done both junior and seniors. Alena Leonova won junior worlds, came top five at senior Europeans, top ten at Worlds. Denis Ten of Kazakhstan went to both junior and senior worlds, along with 4CC n 2009. Michal Brezina went to Euros for two seasons while still competing on the junior circuit. Ira Vannut of Belgium was at Europeans this season while still competing on the junior circuit.

    The distinction between junior and senior internationally is different than it is in most countries. Nationally, its about skill level (if you pass such-and-such test, you're considered a senior). Internationally, it's strictly a designation of age.
    IP - I thought about Leonova and I guess this inequality among the skaters is universal. Also I think it belittles the Junior Level when a Senior contestant returns to the lower level and winds up on the podium - oh yes, he didn't do well in seniors. Can't help but believe that once a skater is competing at a certain level, that is the only leve in whichl he should compete.

    And yes, I think of Juniors as a preparatory National Senior Level and Juniors holding its own. Think Rippon - one would think while not doing well in seniors as expected was able to return to junior level and win.

    My motto: Keep Seniors for seniors, and Juniors for juniors. BTW, Has any Junior ever won who was not in Seniors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    USFS says Brown is eligible to skate Seniors and ISU says he is ok to skate Juniors. He didn't do both. He only skated Seniors and now he will skate Junior Worlds.
    Jason Brown competed as a junior in the JGP series this season. He won a silver medal in France and was an alternate for the JGP final. It was his age eligibility and previous international accomplishments at the junior level that were taken into consideration by the selection committee. For what it's worth, the skaters understand what the process is for being selected.

    I think Richard Dornbush is a good example of how well the US system can work for a skater. Even though he also competed as a junior internationally, he skated senior at nationals. Had he been forced to skate at his international level, he would have most likely walked away with the junior title and be going to junior worlds instead of worlds.

    In regards to juniors winning junior worlds, this is the link for last years results, http://www.isuresults.com/results/wjc2010/CAT001RS.HTM . If you click on the skaters name, their ISU bio shows their placement at their national event for the 09/10 season. At a quick glance, other than the pairs team, all the other gold medalists competed junior at their nationals too.
    Last edited by Tammi; 02-07-2011 at 09:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    My motto: Keep Seniors for seniors, and Juniors for juniors. BTW, Has any Junior ever won who was not in Seniors?
    Yu-Na Kim won when she was competing solely as a junior. Adam Rippon's first victory at World Juniors was when he was competing solely as a junior.

    In Japan, I believe winning juniors allows you to compete at the senior nationals. Hanyu did that last season, but he competed solely as a junior internationally.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tammi View Post
    I think Richard Dornbush is a good example of how well the US system can work for a skater. Even though he also competed as a junior internationally, he skated senior at nationals. Had he been forced to skate at his international level, he would have most likely walked away with the junior title and be going to junior worlds instead of worlds..
    It's not entirely clear to me that it would be better for Dornbush to enter next year as having finished, say,11th in the Worlds rather than as Junior Worlds Champion. If Dornbush finished in the top 6 at Worlds, it would clearly be better for him, and maybe even top 10, but if he finishes lower than 10th, I suspect it would be better to be Junior World Champion.

    So I'd like to know why it would be better to be, say, 11th?

    International judges judge both Senior & Junior events-so international judges would have seen him at Jr. Worlds, if he had gone there.

    If he skates his SP as he did at Nationals, he will be so buried back in the pack that it will be a hard slog to make it to top 10. If he skates it better, of course, it may be another story. In the SP, he had some problems with all 3 jump elements, particularly the 3F, and was 7th.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    My main point is that the USFS has a two prong system of selecting the World Teams. If it is based on Nats results the Seniors selection for Worlds is fixed, but if it is not based on Nats results for Juniors, then those skaters who happened to pass a proficiency test should also be included in the selection process.

    Is the above correct? and should we consider Junior Worlds as an adjunct to the Senior Worlds?

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    Oh by the way, proficiency tests are not competitive but a gauge on how one develops.

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    Adjunct? No. It's a competition for those two young to compete at seniors. I find it fascinating that you dislike the selection process for juniors when it's the one you endorse for seniors.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Adjunct? No. It's a competition for those two young to compete at seniors. I find it fascinating that you dislike the selection process for juniors when it's the one you endorse for seniors.
    I'm not following you IP. The proficiency test is your admission to the senior competitions, afaik. It is not a competition with anyone else. It's not that I dislike the selection process for juniors, I'm just saying it appears to me, that the selection for juniors is different from the selection of seniors to World competitions. In my opinion, and only in my opinion, the selection for both World Teams should be processed the same way. at the same time, I believe a skater who has passed his senior proficiency has the option to skate Seniors or remain Juniors but not both.

    I like the idea of a valid competition of Junior skaters for a championship. I like to believe that the Junior Level has some validity in a competition of junior skaters who have not yet moved up to seniors. as it is practiced now, it seems like it is an adjunct to the Senior Division. Those less than 16 years of age who skate Seniors have come away from senior competition with a far more experience than if they had skated only against their peers.

    As it appears now, it seems to me, that some senior skaters are ok to return to juniors at an advantage.

    As for the Selection process, I would like them to be the same, whatever.

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