US Selections for Junior Worlds

[mskater93]

But that's not true - a skater who passes the US Senior MIF and FS tests can no longer compete as a Junior at US quaifying competitions (Regionals, Sectionals, Nationals). There are select situations for nonqualifying competitions where skaters are allowed to "skate down" in the same way that skaters can "skate up" a level. Those situations are for skaters who have passed their Senior FS but are competing on the JGP circuit.

Because of the disparity in the way skaters can skate Senior Nationals within various countries, it's within the purview of each NGB to determine who will represent the country at both Senior and Junior Worlds (and 4CC/Europeans). The main mission of US Figure Skating is to create World and Olympic Champions. In order to do that, they need as many spots as possible in the JGP and at JWs to get exposure for the atheletes who are promising but aren't quite ready for prime time (Senior GP and Worlds) yet. To that end, it's in US Figure Skating's best interest to send Agnes Zawadzki, Christina Gao and Keegan Messing to JWs.

If all things were equal and all countries had similar test criteria, then perhaps you could preclude those who have passed the International Senior FS test from skating at Junior Worlds. If you think all countries could come to a consensus on what should/shouldn't be included on that test, I have some swamp land in Arizona for sale....

[ivy]

I don't have a problem with skaters competing as Sr's on a nat'l level and on as Jr's int'lly. I don't really like the idea of skaters competing for most of the season as Sr's int'lly and then going to Jr. WC. - that seems a little unfair, but I understand it's not uncommon and not against the rules.

I also don't really have a problem with the selection for the USA team being slightly different for Jr's and Sr's. On paper they seem to be the same - 1st place automatically goes (if age eligible), rest decided by a committee. The committee for Jr's just seems to be more active - picking the best 2 other skates from among age eligible skaters, regardless of the level they competed in

[mskater93]

There have been some instances where the Junior National Champion didn't make the cut for JWs but it's rare and there's usually a good reason.

[ivy]

There have been some instances where the Junior National Champion didn't make the cut for JWs but it's rare and there's usually a good reason.

Thanks for the clarification!

[mskater93]

Thanks for the clarification!

I believe the year Nagasu won Senior Nationals, Flatt was Second and Zhang was fourth they all went to JWs

[RUKen]

I believe the year Nagasu won Senior Nationals, Flatt was Second and Zhang was fourth they all went to JWs

Correct--they were all age-ineligible for "Senior" Worlds, and Caroline Zhang was the defending Junior World Champion.

[ImaginaryPogue]

But that's not true - a skater who passes the US Senior MIF and FS tests can no longer compete as a Junior at US quaifying competitions (Regionals, Sectionals, Nationals). There are select situations for nonqualifying competitions where skaters are allowed to "skate down" in the same way that skaters can "skate up" a level. Those situations are for skaters who have passed their Senior FS but are competing on the JGP circuit.

Because of the disparity in the way skaters can skate Senior Nationals within various countries, it's within the purview of each NGB to determine who will represent the country at both Senior and Junior Worlds (and 4CC/Europeans). The main mission of US Figure Skating is to create World and Olympic Champions. In order to do that, they need as many spots as possible in the JGP and at JWs to get exposure for the atheletes who are promising but aren't quite ready for prime time (Senior GP and Worlds) yet. To that end, it's in US Figure Skating's best interest to send Agnes Zawadzki, Christina Gao and Keegan Messing to JWs.

If all things were equal and all countries had similar test criteria, then perhaps you could preclude those who have passed the International Senior FS test from skating at Junior Worlds. If you think all countries could come to a consensus on what should/shouldn't be included on that test, I have some swamp land in Arizona for sale....

Thank you. The key here is the disparity between the national federations and the ISU about age/eligibility in juniors vs seniors.

[Lucky Star]

I don't have a problem with skaters competing as Sr's on a nat'l level and on as Jr's int'lly. I don't really like the idea of skaters competing for most of the season as Sr's int'lly and then going to Jr. WC. - that seems a little unfair, but I understand it's not uncommon and not against the rules.

I agree, don't really like the situation when skaters who couldn't make the senior team going to the Junior Worlds. Few years ago when Alena Leonova won, even though I were happy for her, only seniors placed on the podium (Leonova, Zhang, Wagner) and it seemed a bit unfair to the real juniors.
I think if a skater competes at senior Grand Prix he/she shouldn't go to JW with exception for the skaters who are not age eligible for senior competition but already can compete at the Grand Prix like Mao Asada in 2005-2006 season or Caroline Zhang in 2007-2008

[Joesitz]

^^^^
What I think we can ascertain by this discussion is that the Junior Division will cater to the Big Six's storehouse of top skaters who did not qualify in their country results for Senior Worlds, with those skaters from Andorra, Lichtenstein, and Puerto Rico, etc. because of their age.

It seems to me to be a glorified competition of skaters who now do not skate Senior Worlds, and is not much more than a world wide "B" competition. Of course if one can watch it, we can see Hanyu, Abbott, Reynolds, et al who also skate senior, skate once again into the sunset. That's always fun (but will we see the comp?)

Because of its set-up, I can not appreciate the Junior Worlds as a major competition. It's an adjunct to to the Senior Division.

[Tammi]

It's not entirely clear to me that it would be better for Dornbush to enter next year as having finished, say,11th in the Worlds rather than as Junior Worlds Champion. If Dornbush finished in the top 6 at Worlds, it would clearly be better for him, and maybe even top 10, but if he finishes lower than 10th, I suspect it would be better to be Junior World Champion.

So I'd like to know why it would be better to be, say, 11th?

I'll probably have to wait until after the event to play Monday morning quarterback , but I do think that in the long run, it will have been better for him to go to Worlds. Time will tell. I'm glad he's been given this opportunity and I'm glad his going opened the door at junior worlds for another skater.

It's not that I dislike the selection process for juniors, I'm just saying it appears to me, that the selection for juniors is different from the selection of seniors to World competitions.

Not from what I can tell. The Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. The Junior Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. Both are regardless of level skated. I'm not sure if a junior champion has ever been sent to Worlds by the USFS, but they could be based on the selection process.

[Tammi]

Because of its set-up, I can not appreciate the Junior Worlds as a major competition. It's an adjunct to to the Senior Division.

It's going to be similar to JGP's vs GP's. For those that compete though, they'll have an opportunity to earn points and possibly a guaranteed grand prix assignment for next season. I guess you could call it a stepping stone?

[Joesitz]

Not from what I can tell. The Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. The Junior Worlds team is selected from the highest ranked age-eligible skaters. Both are regardless of level skated. I'm not sure if a junior champion has ever been sent to Worlds by the USFS, but they could be based on the selection process.

And a junior age eligible skater can skate seniors Nationals and avoid junior Nationals and go straight to Junior Worlds. I'm not arguing that this is wrong for you. I'm just stating that it is wrong for me. I find myself disagreeing with authority. Can't help that. It's the way I was brought up.

BTW, the selection process for seniors turns out every year to be the results of the nationals unless some star was injured and couldn't skate nationals regardless of any decision. Not so with the results of the junior nationals. I believe only numero uno can go to Jr. Worlds, but not sure.

[ivy]

^^^^


It seems to me to be a glorified competition of skaters who now do not skate Senior Worlds, and is not much more than a world wide "B" competition. Of course if one can watch it, we can see Hanyu, Abbott, Reynolds, et al who also skate senior, skate once again into the sunset. That's always fun (but will we see the comp?)

? You seem to be conflating Jr. Worlds and 4CC. As I understand it, Abbott and Reynolds are going to be at 4CC - I think both are too old for Jr's (19 cut off?). Not sure about Hanyu

[Tammi]

And a junior age eligible skater can skate seniors Nationals and avoid junior Nationals and go straight to Junior Worlds. I'm not arguing that this is wrong for you. I'm just stating that it is wrong for me. I find myself disagreeing with authority. Can't help that. It's the way I was brought up.

This is a good discussion with lots of great viewpoints. I'm just not understanding the "avoiding" junior nationals. I'm sorry to Jason Brown for using him as an example again, but by choosing to skate senior, he may have given up the junior national title and a higher funded envelope. I don't see that as "avoiding", but instead pushing himself to compete with the senior national skaters.

BTW, the selection process for seniors turns out every year to be the results of the nationals unless some star was injured and couldn't skate nationals regardless of any decision. Not so with the results of the junior nationals. I believe only numero uno can go to Jr. Worlds, but not sure.

Actually, I'm not sure this is right, but I'd have to double check the rulebook. I believe the only guaranteed spots are the senior champions for the Olympics. Team selections are exactly as you said, the result of nationals, plus international placements. It's not necessarily the top 3 in each level though, because there are ISU age rules that don't translate to most countries.

[Joesitz]

This is a good discussion with lots of great viewpoints. I'm just not understanding the "avoiding" junior nationals. I'm sorry to Jason Brown for using him as an example again, but by choosing to skate senior, he may have given up the junior national title and a higher funded envelope. I don't see that as "avoiding", but instead pushing himself to compete with the senior national skaters.

Thank you for discussing this. I do not know that there was a higher funded envelope involved in which case I see him as a good competitor.

Actually, I'm not sure this is right, but I'd have to double check the rulebook. I believe the only guaranteed spots are the senior champions for the Olympics. Team selections are exactly as you said, the result of nationals, plus international placements. It's not necessarily the top 3 in each level though, because there are ISU age rules that don't translate to most countries.

I was speaking more of how the selection is made by tradition for Worlds - results of US Nats. If we use Abbott as an example, he got 4th place and his results of senior GPs didn't count as well as his tie for the GPF and prior national champion. Instead they went totally for the results of the Nats. I just wish they would put that into the USFS regulations.

There are some teams in the Summer Olys that use an Oly comp to determine who goes to the Olys, but not in their Worlds.