US Selections for Junior Worlds

[mskater93]

This is a good discussion with lots of great viewpoints. I'm just not understanding the "avoiding" junior nationals. I'm sorry to Jason Brown for using him as an example again, but by choosing to skate senior, he may have given up the junior national title and a higher funded envelope. I don't see that as "avoiding", but instead pushing himself to compete with the senior national skaters.

This is a very good point because unless he medals at JW, he will drop 1 funding envelope from last season! I think it's good sportsmanship of him - you won last year, move up!

[Tammi]

I was speaking more of how the selection is made by tradition for Worlds - results of US Nats. If we use Abbott as an example, he got 4th place and his results of senior GPs didn't count as well as his tie for the GPF and prior national champion. Instead they went totally for the results of the Nats. I just wish they would put that into the USFS regulations.

Okay, here is the excerpt from the rulebook (maybe knowing this, we can determine how the selections may have been made):

A. World Championships:
The U.S. World Team shall be selected from those athletes who are ISU senior age eligible and shall include the current U.S. champion in each discipline. The remaining selections shall be based upon the results of the two most recent U.S. Figure Skating Championships, the most recent World Championship, the most recent Four Continents Championship and all other international events; however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances. Exceptions to the age-eligibility rules which are granted by the ISU will always be allowed.

B. Four Continents Championships:
The team shall be selected from those athletes who are ISU senior age eligible. Consideration shall be given the current U.S. champion in each discipline. Selection to the U.S. Four Continents Team shall be based upon the results of the two most recent U.S. Figure Skating Championships, the most recent World Championship, the most recent Four Continents Championship and all other international events; however, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances. Exceptions to the age-eligibility rules which are granted by the ISU will always be allowed.

C. World Junior Championships:
The U.S. World Junior Team shall be selected from those athletes who are ISU junior age eligible, and shall be based on the results of the two most recent U.S. Figure Skating Championships, the most recent World Junior Championships, and all other international events including but not limited to the ISU Junior Grand Prix events, or other athletes who have demonstrated capabilities at the world junior level. However, the International Committee may consider extenuating circumstances.

[Mathman]

^ Joe's point is that whatever the rules say, in seniors the USFSA gives 100% weight to U.S. Nationals and 0% weight to everything else. (The rest of that paragraph, in fact, is just baloney).

In juniors...it is not so clear how they make the determination. Are the three skaters selected for junior worlds the top three age-eligible performers at U.S. Nationals (junior and senior combined), or did the USFSA take some other factor into account?

[Mathman]

I find myself disagreeing with authority. Can't help that. It's the way I was brought up.

That is why it iseems so strange that you want to give The Committeee (representing the official authority of the all-powerful USFSA) the power, in seniors, to override what the skaters achieved on the ice.

Down with authority! Up with skaters!

[Tammi]

Yup, I understand the different opinion with regards to the senior selections. That subject probably deserves it's own discussion in the Worlds thread. I should have only quoted the junior world selection rule in this particular thread, but I wanted to point out that there are some differences between them.

[Mathman]

This is what I found most interesting about the rules for juniors.

...and shall be based on the results of the two most recent U.S. Figure Skating Championships,...

To me, this says that if you skate at either senior nationals or junior nationals, how you place there is the most important consideration. So, for instance, they might feel that Jason Brown's performance in seniors was better than Alex Zahradnicek's performance in juniors.

This would make the de facto selection for junior worlds and for senior worlds more or less the same.

[Tammi]

Excellent, so we can look at Brown and Zahradnicek side by side and see if we would agree with the committee's selection.

Brown ~ 2011 Nationals S9, 2010 Nationals J1
Zahradnicek ~ 2011 Nationals J2, 2010 Nationals J5

Internationally this season
Brown ~ JGP Japan 6th, JGP France 2nd, JGP Final alternate, Gardenia Spring Trophy 1st
Zahradnicek ~ JGP Austria 9th

Maybe Browns 9th place finish in seniors didn't outweigh Zahradnicek's 2nd in junior, but his international results were better, so maybe they did go to that second level in their discussions.

[Mathman]

.. so maybe they did go to that second level in their discussions.

Or they could have just gone down the line in terms of scores at 2011 Nationals, among the age eligibles.

Keegan Messing, 69.79 143.50 213.29
Jason Brown, 64.32 144.44 209.76
Max Aaron 62.95 125.72 188.67
Alex Z. 63.81 119.04 182.85

[oleada]

I'm not sure why it's a discussion when the scores aren't even close.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Aren't junior programs shorter than senior ones? And have jump restrictions?

[oleada]

Aren't junior programs shorter than senior ones? And have jump restrictions?

The short program has the same number of elements. I don't think you can do a quad, but you can do a 3A. The solo jump has to be a 3Lo. As for the long programs, it has the extra choreographic step sequence with a value of 2.00, which wouldn't mean much in terms of the difference in scores.

[ImaginaryPogue]

So being generous, the juniors operate with about five points less than the seniors (assuming that the seniors do both the lutz and the flip and the choreostep).

[oleada]

So being generous, the juniors operate with about five points less than the seniors (assuming that the seniors do both the lutz and the flip and the choreostep).

Well...yes, but only in TES. Some would argue that the PCS is held down for juniors. Brown and Zahradinacek were attempting the same amount of triples, but Alex Z doubled his second 3Lz. But Brown's spins and steps received higher levels and his elements received higher GOE.

But in any case, Brown's score was over 25 points higher, and having watched both, personally, I don't think there's any comparison between skating quality or presentation.

[ivy]

I remember looking at the protocol sheets for the LP about a week ago. After removing the extra step seq. Keegan had the highest TES, Max the 2nd highest and Jason Brown the third, all three were pretty close and about 20 points Alex Z. IIRC. Did not check out the SP

Anyone know if another age eligible male skater that skated in Srs. got a total score above Max's 188 (or an Sr. adjusted 192)? If so, should that should that skater be on the team? I believe Dornbush (Miner too?) is still eligible for ISU Jrs. - was he asked if wanted to skate in JW? He could do both conceivably - though I doubt he'd want to

[Joesitz]

I think the consensus of the Board is to OK what the USFS says. No one will say that the selection should be the same as the Seniors.

I would draw from that, that there is no Junior Team based on the results of the Nats if there are junior skaters who skate in seniors. Amen, and all praise the system.