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Thread: US Selections for Junior Worlds

  1. #61
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Without any further discussion since most posters think it's OK for eligible skaters to skate both Seniors and Juniors. My question would be what is the Junior Level and why does it get more hype than the Novice Level? I believe it is just about age and not about proficiency. Can a 10 year old enter the Junior Level and skip Novice?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Without any further discussion since most posters think it's OK for eligible skaters to skate both Seniors and Juniors.
    Actually, that's not what "most posters" are saying in this thread.

    My question would be what is the Junior Level and why does it get more hype than the Novice Level? I believe it is just about age and not about proficiency. Can a 10 year old enter the Junior Level and skip Novice?
    Since these questions are off-topic for this thread and 2011 Junior Worlds, I've started a new thread in the Edge and replied to you there: http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...951#post549951

  3. #63
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    In Dance and Pairs there were no teams who skated on the Junior Grand Prix who moved up to seniors for nationals. The entire Junior Worlds team was selected from the top finishers at the Junior level at nationals.

    In terms of Ladies and Mens, skaters who have competed internationally as juniors can do senior nationals with a shot at the World team. This also gives them the experience of competing senior programs at a senior competition before they move up to the senior level internationally. This experience can determine whether a skater stays at the junior level the next season or is ready to compete with top skaters at the international level. These skaters shouldn't be punished by being ruled ineligible for Junior Worlds. Being left behind could cost them ISU points and affects their Grand Prix assigmnents the next season.

    If you look at the ladies competition, Christina Gao and Agnes Zawadzki both had strong programs. Neither one made a mistake that cost them a placement on the Worlds team. Both are age eligible as Juniors. The competitors they will be competing against at Junior Worlds are the ladies they will be skating with for years to come. It's more beneficial for these skates and for USFS to send them to Junior Worlds. By moving up, they also gave ladies who compete nationally as juniors the opportunity to win a medal and kept skaters who were at the same level together. Because our fields are so deep, there aren't very many opportunities for skaters on the JGP and if you look at the skaters who competed at the junior level, none of them had any international experience, and this leveled the playing field and allowed new skaters to emerge who will be able to get JGP slots next season.

  4. #64
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    Isn't there a rule saying that junior national champion MUST move up to senior level the following year?

  5. #65
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    It's certainly the common thing that is done, and it is the custom. I don't know whether USFS made it a real rule. That would be why Jason Brown was skating seniors this year. However, you can repeat as World Jr Champion. Adam Rippon did it, AFAIR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnet View Post
    Isn't there a rule saying that junior national champion MUST move up to senior level the following year?
    No, there isn't a such a rule in the USFS rulebook for Junior/Novice champs. That's why 2010 US Novice men's champion, Nathan Chen, was able to stay down and repeat as Novice champ this year.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    No, there isn't a such a rule in the USFS rulebook for Junior/Novice champs. That's why 2010 US Novice men's champion, Nathan Chen, was able to stay down and repeat as Novice champ this year.
    Can we say that skating at a Level means the skaters al have passed the proficiency test for that Level?

    May I conclude that the Tests are not revised to bring them up to present day standards? I would like to see in the Senior Tests to include a 3A for the Men's, and a proper lutz combo for the Ladies. That's the status of present day figure skating so why not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Can we say that skating at a Level means the skaters al have passed the proficiency test for that Level?

    May I conclude that the Tests are not revised to bring them up to present day standards? I would like to see in the Senior Tests to include a 3A for the Men's, and a proper lutz combo for the Ladies. That's the status of present day figure skating so why not?
    But it's not the status of present-day figure skating in general. It's only the status of the very top level skaters that you see at international competitions--which maybe is less than 100-200 eligible skaters that can reliably do a 3A or a 3Z combo. You do realize that there are vast number of Senior-level skaters that never make it to even intl Senior B level competitions. If the Tests are revised to make them so difficult that only a few dozen will pass, then what happens to local and regional competitions. Collegiate competitions? I think sometimes we are so spoiled seeing these top skaters roll off triples, that we forget just how hard it is master even one or two of them.

    At least in the USA, it is this way at all levels--the elements required to pass a Test level are less than the elements required to be competitive at the very top of that level. I don't see why this is a problem, as everybody in the system knows what it takes to pass Tests and what it takes to be competitive enough to place well or win competitions. And that they are different. Besides, some skaters are not interested in competing but they do want to go through the Test system for personal satisfaction or enroute to coaching credentials.
    Last edited by bigsisjiejie; 02-23-2011 at 08:55 AM.

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    Well said, bigsisjiejie!

    To take this even further off topic, USFS recently initiated a Test Track competition program: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=79
    The test track will line up the test structure requirements with the competition levels, giving skaters a fair playing field to continue competing and testing according to their abilities.
    ...
    Adding an alternative track for restricted competition will encourage skaters, offer them opportunities for success in a competitive atmosphere while they continue to progress through the test structure, gain credentials for future endeavors and retain membership in U.S. Figure Skating. Competitions that host these events will be offering more opportunities to keep skaters motivated along the pipeline and keep them enthusiastic about their abilities in hopes of retaining skaters who may be discouraged by the high level of technical elements at all levels.
    ETA: Thanks to Tammi, too, for making the important point in her post below mine that the "elite" skaters (i.e., those who can do a 2A and/or at least 1 triple cleanly) are a small minority within the USFS system.
    Last edited by Sylvia; 02-23-2011 at 09:49 AM.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    May I conclude that the Tests are not revised to bring them up to present day standards? I would like to see in the Senior Tests to include a 3A for the Men's, and a proper lutz combo for the Ladies. That's the status of present day figure skating so why not?
    Because USFS is not just for elite skaters. I'd say there is a much larger group of recreational skaters and those that will never reach sectional, national or international events. USFS gives out a gold medal to all skaters who pass their senior free and that can be accomplishment enough for many figure skaters. As pointed out, it can also help them if they want to go on as a coach or judge. You may want to research the "test track" program on the USFS site. It's only a few years old, but it helps to keep the skaters on the appropriate path for them, be it testing or competing at the higher levels. For example, local competitions can now include events for Intermediate free skate and Test Track Intermediate free skate. Skaters would need to have passed the same test for the Intermediate level, but the regular free skate event would most likely have skaters who can do double axels, a triple and double/double jumps. The test track event would be limited to the elements needed to pass the test. Hope that makes sense. Basically, if it wasn't done this way, USFS would need two completely different testing structures, otherwise only those labeled "elite' would be able to pass the test. Where would that leave the thousands of other skaters?

    I know that the moves in the field tests were recently updated. I believe that was because of the new footwork sequences that were brought in with IJS, so there are now some new elements that skaters would need to be proficient in. If you've never been to a local club competiton, I'd highly recommend it. It may help you to understand how the testing structure works for everyone and not just the elite international skaters we see on television.

  11. #71
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    What I am gathering here, is that one can take the Senior Test (whatver it is) at any age, and if he passes the Test, he can then skate in Senior Comp with the Big Boys with no particular jumping skills. At least in the Regionals and Sectionals. What is it about real noncompetitive skaters that must be taken care of? I can only think of money. Anything else?

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    What is it about real noncompetitive skaters that must be taken care of? I can only think of money. Anything else?
    Pure enjoyment of the sport? The desire to advance as far as they can by testing or competing?

    If you would really like to have a serious discussion on this topic, why don't you start a new thread in The Edge? (since we are waaaaaaay off topic now)

  13. #73
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    What I am gathering here, is that one can take the Senior Test (whatver it is) at any age, and if he passes the Test, he can then skate in Senior Comp with the Big Boys with no particular jumping skills. At least in the Regionals and Sectionals. What is it about real noncompetitive skaters that must be taken care of? I can only think of money. Anything else?
    Senior MIF test: extension edge step pattern, spiral pattern, power pulls with quick rockers and double threes (2 different patterns), serpentine step sequence pattern.

    Senior FS test: hardest REQUIRED element is a double Lutz. You can pass the Senior FS test with just the double Lutz and no double Axel or triples if you can also present at an expected Senior level.

    You can sign up for Regionals if you passed the appropriate tests and meet the appropriate criteria (age restrictions for Juvenie and Intermediate) without regard to what it takes to be competitive at that level. For some people, just competing at Regionals in the Novice/Junior/Senior level is a goal (and is also required to become a TS). Likely you will not make JNs or Sectionals if you are only able to complete what's required at that test level.

    According to an argument that was made when they were considering changing the Senior FS test requirements a couple years back from double Lutz to more difficult jumping elements, I understand that only 1% of skaters who enter the test stream (Prepreliminary MIF) ever pass their Senior FS test.

    For skaters that decide at the Juvenile/Intermediate level that they are never going to be competitive (say a 16 year old girl without a clean double Axel who has worked on it for two years already with no success), passing the Senior FS test can become a goal to work towards to keep the skater from quitting the sport altogether due to frustration. It's also a nice goal for skaters that don't start at the age of 5 or who's parents can't afford unlimited lessons/ice time that is required for the skater to progress to the elite levels.

    Skating can be a lifetime sport. Most skaters fit into the profile of over achievers and perfectionists who need goals to drive them. If you change the requirements to pass the Senior test, it would drive those that determine that to be their goal out of the sport. Yes, it's about the money (clubs live on their members' dues, test fees, and club freestyle fees along with the volunteer hours of their board members and club members; skaters quitting = less members = less money) but it's also a matter of keeping a knowledgeable fan base. If my avenues for success in the sport were closed (say the Adult programs were cancelled and I could no longer compete against other adult athletes at a similar skill level) and I became bitter about that, I would likely drop skating in favor of another hobby (therefore I would pay no club dues, my club would lose an officer and a bucketload of volunteer hours) and I would no longer pay attention to figure skating (loss of viewership = loss of TV revenues).

    Many people on this forum are observers of the sport and follow only the highest level of the sport (Nationals qualifiers, Nationals, Euros/4CC, Worlds, Nationals, GP) and as such don't ever really consider the recreational skaters who are the ones that provide some of the money that goes to the enveloped skaters (through dues and test fees, although the majority of that envelope money comes from TV revenues) and who pay to be on the freestyle sessions alongside the Sectional competitor. Say a rink charges the club $250 per hour for ice time (which is actually on the low side where I live). In order for the club to break even, at $10 per hour per skater, they would need 25 skaters on the session. Where are those skaters going to come from if not from the recreational ranks? What are the chances of really having 25 on that session? If the club doesn't and the money has to come from the club's bank account, where does that come from, especially if you drive the recreational skaters out?

  14. #74
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    "The best index to a person's character is (a) how he treats people who can't do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can't fight back." ~ Abigail Van Buren

    Thus far I personally think the USFSA is doing a pretty good job when it comes to all skaters, no matter what level, even at the recreational level. Jmho.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine View Post
    "The best index to a person's character is (a) how he treats people who can't do him any good, and (b) how he treats people who can't fight back." ~ Abigail Van Buren

    Thus far I personally think the USFSA is doing a pretty good job when it comes to all skaters, no matter what level, even at the recreational level. Jmho.
    Only a woman would dream up this. Some Women's Sports have gone beyond, it's too difficult for me. Tennis, Basketball, etc. but maybe you are correct. This is the Sport where sequins carry a lot of weight.

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