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Thread: Changing Your Programs on the Fly in COP and 6.0...Successfully

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Changing Your Programs on the Fly in COP and 6.0...Successfully

    It's a rare skill. Nobunari Oda is most famous for not being able to do it successfully. Plush lost a competition to Emanuel Sandhu (GPF AFAIR) for not doing it successfully. Christopher Bowman's on air fight with Frank Carroll after Chris rechoreographed his LP on the fly at Worlds in Halifax is famous...but Chris medalled as a result.

    The most successful rechoreographer I know of is without doubt Jeff Buttle, who was a very bright guy, who was majoring in chemical engineering--I don't know whether he ever graduated though. He could rechoreograph and make the result look intentional

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Buttle

    Interestingly enough, Rachael Flatt's silver medal at US Nationals was another case of rechoreographing on the fly (no wonder the skate looked over thought through and uninspired..she has yet to learn how to do this and look brilliant )

    However, it's a positive skill and is perhaps partially responsible for the judges being kind to her at Nationals:

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/leade...6/results.html

    Click the plus next to Rachael's name to see her Planned vs. Executed Skills

    Planned:
    Double Axel Triple Toe
    Triple Lutz Triple Loop
    Change Foot Sit Spin
    Triple Flip
    Flying Camel Spin
    Choreo Spirals
    Triple Lutz
    Double Axel
    Triple Flip Double Toe Double Loop
    Straight Line Step Sequence
    Triple Salchow
    Change Foot Combination Spin

    Executed
    Having Underrotated the 3T on the 2A3t combination
    And popped the 3Lz into a 2Lz without a combination Rachael's list then looks nothing like her planned list, as she struggled to maximize points and recoup the loss of the 3Lz and 3Lp she had planned, and add in an extra combination:

    Change Foot Camel Spin Level 4 (did she use this to think over what to do next?)
    Why did she pick this rather than the scheduled Sit Spin?

    Triple Flip (same)

    Flying Combination Spin Level 4

    Choreo Spirals

    Triple Lutz Double Loop (getting the combo in here; I wonder if this is past the bonus, but not risking the triple loop)

    Triple Flip Double Toe Double Loop instead of the Double Axel

    Triple Loop instead of the 3F2T2Lp planned here

    Straight Line Sequence 3
    Triple Salchow
    Change Foot Combination Spin 3

    I have no idea why she changed the spins too.

    Is it a coincidence that she also wants to be a chemical engineer?

    What are your opinions on this very risky practice?

    Frank fired Chris, partially over it.

    OTOH it worked for Rachael today.

    Should people do it?

  2. #2
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Plan your skate, skate your plan.

    Alissa Czisny changed some things around, too. In fact, I think one of the planned elements must be listed wrong. She was scheduled to do two flips and one Lutz, but in the execution she did it the other way around. This (what she actually executed) has to be right, because her Lutz is her best jump and she has to be careful of the edge on her flip.

    Alissa did the opposite of missing a combination, then tacking something on later. She planned a solo triple toe loop as her third element, then a 3t+2T+2T in the second half to pick up the bonus (0.28 points). But she did the combo first instead. I bet what happened is that her first triple toe was so good she couldn't help herself.

    Maybe she planned it that way. If the first one felt right she would do the combo then, and otherwise try to do it at the end.

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    I'm not well versed enough in COP to discuss this question in any depth, but I do know that when my daughter was competing, she and her coach often had a backup plan - as in, we want to do this, but if something goes wrong, then do this. It may be that some changes that seem to be on the fly were actually strategized in advance.

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    Wasn't Oksana Baiul famous for re-choreographing on the fly? She usually did pretty well with it. I imagine it's a lot harder now, as Oda has shown several times. Interesting about Buttle. I love the idea that a math-engineering person would take it on as a mechanical challenge.

    Clarke, your child's experience sounds like something a lot of top-tier coaches would also work through with their students, considering how high the stakes are for those skaters. Especially through a season where the skaters have already tried the program and found their own weak points, the coach would want to prepare a strategy that could get them out of a tight spot.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    A lot of people have Plan B (do the combo on the 2nd Lutz or Flip).

    What I'm talking about is major reconstruction.

    Alissa did do some successful restructuring, and as the Flip was swapped for a lutz. It's got to be a listing error I would think. Perhaps, given the edge call she got in the short, she and her coach planned this layout after the SP to avoid the risk of 2 edge calls in the LP?.

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    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    It's a rare skill. Nobunari Oda is most famous for not being able to do it successfully. Plush lost a competition to Emanuel Sandhu (GPF AFAIR) for not doing it successfully.
    i had to rewatch it but Plushenko didnt change the program on the fly because he did something wrong and had to adjust. What he did was EVEN worse, he just went and did 3 combos just because..he could? He did a 4Toeloop-3 Toeloop, 4 Toeloop - 2 Loop, 3 Axel-2 Toeloop, back to back to back when in the first Cop season two were allowed. I dont know what he was thinking, commentators didnt pick this either until the marks.
    But I think he was notorious up until Nice 2000 for another thing, how he changed his jumps layout on the fly in case he missed the quad. He was called a headcase of Oda proportions up unitl then

    What did ALissa do, I didnt get it.
    Last edited by seniorita; 01-30-2011 at 10:22 AM.

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    It's an interesting question to me too - and it's hard to know whether Rachel's overhaul was planned, but paperwork not updated, or improvised - or a combo of the 2. I'd guess the later. It seems I heard that Rachel wasn't planning to do 3x3 in the LP, but it is listed as a planned element. Maybe that list reflects the program as it was originally choreographed at the beginning of the season, and no one in Rachel's camp updated the list as the program evolved through the season. Sorry to say I haven't payed that close of attention to her program until Nat's.

    Regardless, it would seem most skaters really need to be fully in the moment to execute and sell their programs. If you're busy rearranging, you're not in the moment. It would seem to take a special kind of mind and a praticed skater to be both in the moment and in the future. Maybe Buttle meditates - that would seem to help to me.

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    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure Rachael changed her jump plan on the fly. The planned elements list skaters submit are more like a wish list most of the time (Caroline Zhang's FS planned element list included a 3flilp/3toe in the second half!). By all comments Rachael has made prior to the FS and practice reports about her, it doesn't seem like she had any plans for a 3lutz/3loop combo. Indeed, the 3lutz combo she went for in the second half was the 3lutz/2toe, not a 2loop. And if she doesn't have a 3lutz/3loop combo planned, the jump layout she used with a 3loop instead of a 2axel in the second half makes sense. Otherwise she would not be doing a 3loop in her program at all since her planned repeated jumps are the 3lutz and the 3flip.

    And since she doubled the planned 3lutz, if she was really ad libbing and was up for it she could've gone for a 3lutz in place of the 3sal or 3loop instead, that would've scored her a lot more points. Instead she wound up only repeating her 3flip thus diminishing her scoring potential.

    Regardless Rachael and her team had a great plan for a 7 triple program, with some high scoring jumping passes in the second half. Even when she messed some of that plan up she still rotated more, landed harder jumps and put down more technical content than Mirai which is one of the reasons she won over Mirai.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Rachael added another triple instead of the planned double axel in the second half to make up for missing her first lutz. She came to win. That or else she and her coach changed the program shortly before the event and didn't update the planned element sheet.

  10. #10
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Thanks Doris - very interesting to see what Rachael did. I'm sure it helped her win silver. Impressive. I think it's true that she probably wasn't going to do the 3 lutz 3 loop. I don't think it had been going so well for her. But the double axel swap seems like it was on the fly. Good for her for landing the triple.

    Alissa also changed her SP both times during the GP series when things didn't go as planned. One of the things that showed her new found competitive meddle. But I'm sure it was part of a plan b thing and not completely improvised on the spot.

    Tom Z, speaking about Agnes, said they went through drills on different scenarios to help her be more focused during the FS. I wasn't sure what he meant. I wonder if part of it was coming up with alternative jump plans.

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    The score sheets are often filled out and due long before the actual competition takes place. I don't think Rachael really changed anything on the fly - I think she just didn't update her planned program content form.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    I don't really get why Rachael changed her game plan from last year anyway. Why did she decide to open with a 2a3t instead of the 3f-3t she was doing last year. Is it because she was trying to rework her flip?

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Rachael didn't change her program on the fly. She simply had two slightly different planned layouts for the second half of her program, depending on if she did the 3Lutz-3Loop at the beginning (which hasn't happened all season and was never going to happen).

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    Cool thread Dorisp..! I don't know the answer to the basic question, but my impression is it is way more dangerous to re-choreo now than with 6.0. I agree with with MM, plan your skate and skate your plan. But obviously, mistakes happen and perhaps many of the skaters have a plan B for that. I wish we could have one those debrief the comp shows where this kind of question could be put to the experts and skaters. It would be cool to know when, say, Rachel's planned element sheet was submitted, and more to the point, when it was written. Then we would have a much better sense of how far she diverged from the plan. Kudos to her for making up points where she could. I agree, too, with Doris that some skaters seem better at this (like Buttle and not like Oda, poor thing).

    Anyway, now I have yet another thing to ponder - study the protocols for the marks and to compare with planned elements. fun. quick question, are these planned element sheets available to us casual fans before the comp starts?

  15. #15
    Like subtlety in ice dancing Serious Business's Avatar
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    Sometimes the planned element sheets are available online before a competition. Half the time I found them to be wildly different than what skaters actually do. Not just jumps but spins and footworks are different and differently ordered. And a lot of the times skaters will list difficult elements that they really have no hope of ever doing. I've found it better to just watch the skate as it happens.

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